dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (05/10/85)
After reading over my last posting I decided to add a little more to it for clarity sake. >Closed systems can produce smaller parts (Earth) with higher order than the >rest of the environment. This is not a problem. Question? >Why do you say that ice is more ordered than liquid water? >Because it is less random; the molecules are not free to wander around >to the same extent that they can in a liquid. >In other words, water, when acted upon by an external energy source, >(electricity), with a driving mechanism and a program for specific >work, (refrigeration), is transformed to a state of higher order. >But when left to its own devices reverts back to a lower order or >random state. In this example, the water reaches a higher level of order by a a specific program and mechanism for transferring the energy (heat) from the water into the outside area. However, even though the entropy is decreased within, resulting in a higher state of order, it is done at the expense of greater entropy in the overall system. It is very important to note here that it was NOT an influx of external energy alone which brought about the increase in order and decrease in entropy, but a highly mechanized program using external energy to transfer energy from the water. Had the water been exposed to an influx of external energy, without the mechanized program of refrigeration, the entire system would have experienced an increase in entropy, including a greater increase in entropy and decrease in order for the subsystem in question. Increase of Entropy = Total influx of energy ---------------------- Absolute Temperature Thus, the greater the outside heat energy that enters the system, the greater the increase in entropy and disorder! And so I must re-emphasize! > There are systems which do manifest an increasing degree of comlexity. > These are open systems and draw on external sources of energy. However, > merely having an open system and energy available from the sun does > not automatically generate higher order in that system. > No system shows an increasing order unless it also possesses a specific > program to direct its growth and a complex mechanism to convert the > suns energy into specific work. Examples of such directive programs > are DNA in living systems, and plans and specifications for > construction of artificial systems. Mechanisms for storing and > converting energy would be photosynthesis in plants, metabolism in > animals, and machinery in artificial construction. Every system when left to its own devices always tend to move from order to disorder............uniform low-level temperature, the universe will have died a heat death! Dan
keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle) (05/11/85)
> After reading over my last posting I decided to add a little more to > it for clarity sake. >> No system shows an increasing order unless it also possesses a specific >> program to direct its growth and a complex mechanism to convert the >> suns energy into specific work. Examples of such directive programs >> are DNA in living systems, and plans and specifications for >> construction of artificial systems. Mechanisms for storing and >> converting energy would be photosynthesis in plants, metabolism in >> animals, and machinery in artificial construction. > > Every system when left to its own devices always tend to move from order > to disorder............uniform low-level temperature, the universe > will have died a heat death! > > > Dan You've hit on it... Simply the fact that you grow from a single cell into a human being is an example of increasing complexity, and I might add exposure to outside energy (food, sunlight, etc.) is allowing this. And, we know these systems 'programs' exist. I see no reason to assume that these 'programs' could not have arisen naturally. Thermonuclear reactions on the sun have the effect of converting lower elements to higher ones, increasing the atomic weight and atomic complexity. Thru heat, and expending energy, a higher complexity can be achieved naturally, and is happening all the time. Keith Doyle # {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd
dimitrov@csd2.UUCP (Isaac Dimitrovsky) (05/11/85)
[] Dan Boskovich writes: > And so I must re-emphasize! > >> There are systems which do manifest an increasing degree of comlexity. >> These are open systems and draw on external sources of energy. However, >> merely having an open system and energy available from the sun does >> not automatically generate higher order in that system. > >> No system shows an increasing order unless it also possesses a specific >> program to direct its growth and a complex mechanism to convert the >> suns energy into specific work. And so I must reiterate! Snowflakes! Snowflakes! Snowflakes! Also, if you are interested in this stuff, I once took a mathematical biology class (not on evolution, by the way) where we were given several examples of so-called symmetry breaking reactions, in which a well-mixed batch of several chemicals will naturally `break' the symmetry of the mixture and separate into patterns. There were several different types shown, including one in which there was a cyclic, moving pattern. I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but it certainly seemed neat at the time. If anyone is interested, I can try to dig up references for these, or even to give the instructions for producing such a reaction. Isaac Dimitrovsky