[net.origins] Comments on: The Scientific Case for Creation

gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/09/85)

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    Before he went on vacation, Ron Kukuk gave us several installments of
 Walter Brown's theses in support of creationism (or, more precisely, in
 critique of contemporary science).  Trying to avoid both quoting the original
 submission and going outside of my expertise, I would like to make selected
 comments on some of the items.

 46.  The First Law of Thermodynamics applied to the universe.

    Since thermodynamics is an empirical study, its applicability to the entire
 universe is suspect.  Energy conservation is a trusted principle in science,
 but not sacred or countlessly tested.  Refer to my comments on "Re: A new
 voice" for more detail.

 47.  The Second Law of Thermodynamics applied to the universe.

    Since classical thermodynamics assumes systems at equilibrium (no gradients
 or localized concentrations) without long-range correlations (long-range
 forces include electrostatics and gravitation), the arguments about the second
 law do not apply to the universe as a whole.  Notice also that whether or not
 the universe is isolated in a thermodynamic sense is different than the issue
 of whether or not the universe is open or closed in a dynamic sense (due to
 self-gravitation).  The original statement proceeds in assuming a resolution
 to the isolated universe question (If...) without explicitly discussing the
 answer.

 54.  Not seeing any stars being born.

    Since a nova or supernova produces many orders of magnitude more light than
 a star undergoing formation, it is not unreasonable that star births would be
 much more difficult to observe.  In fact, novae or supernovae are often
 observed where no star was observable before.  Recently, a few articles have
 appeared discussing the observations of possible stellar formations.  This
 issue seems to be more of a sampling or observational problem than a property
 of nature.  Below a certain mass limit, stars die quietly by going through
 successive dwarf stages, and these deaths would not be readily observable
 either.  Note that the only reference given here is for a creationist text.

 56.  Galaxies do/do not evolve from one type to another.

    When just beginning graduate school, I recall that galactic evolution was
 still treated as a research topic.  The increasing availability of
 supercomputers should assist in evaluating this issue.  Perhaps some
 astronomer can provide us with the latest thinking on this.  Again, the only
 references supplied are for creationists' texts.

 57.  Dates prior to written records assume a dating clock.

    This appears straight out of Newton's concept of an absolute time standard.
 The mention of a dating clock does not seem to bear on any scientific issue
 though science uses several dating methods.  The requirement that a single
 dating clock exists seems superfluous.  Also, the statement implies that
 written records serve as an accurate dating clock, which is not correct if the
 problems between the biblical and Egyptian/Greek/Babylonian chronologies, and
 Old and New Testament genealogies, are examined.  Where applicable,
 radioactive decay is about as reliable as you might want.  Before the
 development of the maser, the timing standard (cesium clock) derived from
 radioactive decay.

                               (To be continued)


                            Patrick Wyant
                            AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                            *!iham1!gjphw

gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/09/85)

 58.  Radioactive decay rates are unreliable and use unknown mechanisms.

    A bit of intentional semantic confusion appears to be introduced here.  In
 science, what is known is often considered synonymous with what can be
 calculated accurately, even though the description may be later shown to be
 incorrect (e.g., Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction) or an explanation may be
 essentially missing (e.g., tidal tables constructed by the ancient Egyptians).
 The area of study called nuclear theory deals with the many properties of the
 nucleus of a atom.  The constancy of nuclear decay, while directly checked for
 only 70 years, is incorporated into nuclear theory.  Nuclear decay is
 consistent with other known properties of the nucleus, so that direct
 laboratory observation is not the only support for constant radioactive decay
 rates.  It is not correct to state that no one knows what causes radioactive
 decay.  G. Gamow calculated alpha decay in the 1940's, beta decay has been
 calculated and is an important component in the recent theory unifying the
 weak nuclear force and electromagnetism.  One decay mode, positron decay, was
 calculated before it was observed in the laboratory.  There are twelve known
 radioactive decay modes.  The reference provided for variable decay rates is
 from someone (Gentry) who appears to be a creationist.  When his proposals
 were presented in scientific journals, others found different explanations for
 his observations that did not rely on variable decay rates.

 60.  Radiocarbon dating is unreliable.

    When I left graduate school, there was some discussion in the journals
 concerning variability in the rate at which carbon-14 (radiocarbon) was being
 produced in the Earth's atmosphere.  However, most authors wrote of variations
 of 10%-15% and were engaged in a study to see if these variations were
 periodic (and therefore correctable in dating).  No one that I read suggested
 an order of magnitude (factor of 10) variation as would be required to confuse
 5E4 years with 5E3 years.  Again, the only references are creationists' texts.

 73.  Trace elements are rapidly accumulating in the oceans.

    If I asked some of my physical oceanographer friends, they could probably
 come up with several explanations for the residence times and concentrations
 of trace elements in the oceans.  The problem would then be deciding which of
 the mechanisms is most important.

 75.  Meteoritic dust should be rapidly accumulating on the Earth's surface.

    Before the space program, the rate at which dust was accumulating on
 planetary bodies (e.g., Earth, moon) was speculative.  Most estimates were
 high compared to present estimates.  The references are taken from articles
 written before space flight became "routine", in an obvious attempt to support
 a point that is no longer valid.

 76.  If extrapolated into the past, the Earth's magnetic field is too big.

    This was convincingly refuted by someone on the net who presented careful
 evidence that T. Barnes purposely ignored data from the oldest rocks and fit
 an exponential to the remaining data when there was no reason for choosing
 that particular function for fitting.  This point is not supported anywhere in
 the recent scientific literature.

                               (To be continued)


                            Patrick Wyant
                            AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                            *!iham1!gjphw

gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/10/85)

 79.  The moon should have a very thick layer of dust.

    This is related to point 75 dealing with dust accumulation on the Earth.
 One of the contributors to A. Montagu's book *Science and Creationism* showed
 how the creationist author purposely picked through old discussions, ignoring
 more recent estimates, to support an argument for a young solar system.  The
 original Scientific American author was even referenced out of context in
 order to arrive at the thick dust estimate (the uncertainty was ignored).

 82.   Jupiter and Saturn are radiating more energy than they receive.

    Yes, Jupiter and Saturn appear to be radiating more energy in the far
 infrared than they are receiving from the sun.  The article then lists the
 major energy sources for proto-suns, and proceeds to assert that this excess
 radiated energy comes from cooling off.  What happened to these planets that
 they must cool off?  What generated the original heat?  Surely creation is not
 a heat generating process!

 85.   The sun is shrinking by 0.1% per century.

    This item was just breaking when I finished graduate school.  There was
 discussion about its effects on the Earth's climate and if some terrestrial
 evidence might be found to support or refute the shrinking sun claims.  Some
 of the early problems included establishing the magnitude of the effect, and
 disentangling it from different observational techniques and the Earth's
 recession from the sun.  Anyone have more recent information?

 88-95.  Support for the existence of Noah's Ark.

    While not possessing any evidence one way or another concerning the
 existence and location of Noah's Ark, the references that were provided are of
 the same style as descriptions of the Yeti and Bigfoot.  All of these may
 exist, but they have proven very difficult to document and record clearly.

 97.   Glaciers and the ice age are better explained by a flood.

    There is evidence for a series of ice ages.  Does that mean that this
 evidence also provides support for several worldwide floods?

 104.   Extinction of the dinosaurs are better explained by a flood.

    However, a flood does not explain the simultaneous extinction of marine
 life at the time of the dinosaur extinctions.  With evidence of several mass
 life extinctions, I am intrigued by the possibility of periodic catastrophes
 such as large meteoric impacts at 26-33 million year intervals.

 114.  Practically every culture has flood legends.

    An additional example of the same logical fallacy:  A million flies can't
 be wrong.  Eat manure!

                               (To be continued)


                            Patrick Wyant
                            AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                            *!iham1!gjphw

gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/12/85)

                                   In summary

    The shotgun technique used by W. Brown (as posted by R. Kukuk) to critique
 science relies on several fallacies.  One is the assertion that contemporary
 science and creationism contain the only explanations for the genesis of life
 and the universe.  A second is that it is sufficient to refute science in
 order to establish creationism.

    Science is more accurately viewed as a dynamic process with many
 participants.  The issues of establishing a fact, the interpretations of
 facts, and what constitutes sufficient support or refutation of any theory or
 collection of theories are thorny enough among legitimate investigators, but
 the introduction of unscrupulous players with a hidden agenda sets these
 difficulties into relief.  Any snapshot of science will reveal its
 contradictions and inconsistencies, but then a snapshot usually renders an
 incomplete picture of a process.

    As has been used for unexplained archeological artifacts where
 extraterrestrial influences have been claimed, some creationists (e.g.,
 W. Brown) have seen fit to select particular explanations for certain
 partially understood phenomena.  In most cases, a half dozen non-creation
 explanations are also possible.  These alternative natural explanations are
 not often given prominent coverage in the research journals because the
 evidence to support them is not available.  This supporting evidence is what
 distinguishes a theory from speculation (one of my favorite activities).
 Popular science magazines are much better sources of speculation than academic
 journals.

    Creationism also seems to depend on the treatment of science as intuitively
 obvious based on ordinary experience.  Science has progressed because its
 contributors struggled past everyday experiences to develop a new intuition.
 Unfortunately, this need to step beyond typical experience often renders
 science beyond the ready grasp of the common man (or engineer).

    It seems that resting support for a proposal on the ignorance of a
 designated competitor is fraught with danger.  Creationism seems to be saying
 that science knows all that it ever will, and that the inconsistencies and
 uncertainties that exist are proof of its failure.  At times, it appears as if
 creationists are faulting science for failing to support cultural biases and
 popular misconceptions.  Creationism solves these difficulties by proposing
 temporary suspensions of natural processes that are beyond further scientific
 investigation.

    The language and concepts of the Bible figure prominently in the writing of
 the creationists.  The inerrancy of the Bible is an important tenant of the
 leading creationist organizations.  Yet what is the resolution when
 contemporary science and fundamental Christianity come in conflict?  I have
 read that there is considered to be ample biblical support for an Earth-
 centered universe, but this is in conflict with space-borne observations.  The
 philosophers of science that I have read consider that science makes its best
 progress when all authorities are rejected.  The current age of science began
 in the mid-1800's, as did Christian fundamentalism.

    This is enough of my ramblings.  W. Brown's shotgun technique makes an
 effective and comprehensive defense of science difficult.  I have tried to
 deal with the few topics with which I have some personal experience.  I trust
 that the patient reader will not confuse the incompleteness of science with a
 failure of science, and can recognize an insidious attack.

                              (The end....for now)


                            Patrick Wyant
                            AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                            *!iham1!gjphw

dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (07/13/85)

>     An additional example of the same logical fallacy:  A million flies can't
>  be wrong.  Eat manure!

Yes, many of us read the net regularly.



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Paul DuBois     {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois        --+--
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"More agonizing, less organizing."                                  |