[net.origins] The Saturn Myth

ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) (07/10/85)

     In "Worlds  in Collision", Immanuel Velikovsky gave
the world the key to  the  language  which  the ancients
used to describe THEIR world.  The proofs of the general
thesis  of  the  book   rely  heavily   upon  a  radical
re-interpretation  of  a  great  deal  of the literature
which we call mythology.   Modern  science  has  not yet
accepted this  thesis because  it doesn't yet accept the
validity   of    these   basic    lines   of   argument.
Establishment  scientists  are  just  now  beginning  to
recognize   the    inevitability    of    dealing   with
catastrophism  (the   new  theories  about  iridium  and
dinosaurs),  assuming  they  can  be  put  a comfortable
distance in  time from  us, the usual billions of years.
They remain oblivious to the fact that admitting  to one
global catastrophe  ruins all of the assumptions used by
any of their systems for dating  ANYTHING prior  to that
castrophe.  Velikovsky's  date for  the most recent such
castrophe  was  about  700  B.C.   Establishment science
isn't comfortable  with that  yet;   the validity of the
theory is relatively unimportant to them.

     Castrophists have simply gone their own  way since,
believing  it  best  to  let  the world catch up when it
wants  to.    Velikovsky's  long   promised  "Worlds  in
Collision, Chapter  II", dealing  with the nature of the
world prior to the  flood, was  essentially published in
1981 in  the form of "The Saturn Myth" by David Talbott,
available from  DoubleDay.   Articles  on  the  same and
similar topics  appear regularly  in the Kronos Journal,
subscriptions ($15/year) from:

               Kronos
               P.O. Box 343
               Wynnewood, PA 19096

     The ancients believed that  Jupiter and  Saturn had
been live  stars within  the memory  of man.  Greeks and
Romans described the planetary  systems  of  Jupiter and
Saturn  as  the  dual  systems of dieties, Olympian gods
under Zeus (Jupiter), and Titans under  Kronos (Saturn).
Egyptians described the same thing as a "double Ennead",
the systems of Set and Horus.   They believed  there had
been an  ORBITING mantel of water, not clouds, high over
the world; that one hadn't needed  be but  so much  of a
prophet to  know it  was going  to fall  some day.  They
described the sky as  the  primeval  watery  abyss.  The
first  paragraph  of  Genesis  refers  to  the  sky as a
firmamemt built  to seperate  the waters  above from the
waters below.  The great hymns to Osiris in the Egyptian
Book of the Dead refer to Osiris as having fashioned man
and  the  primeval  watery  abyss  of  the  sky.  Nearly
identical language  concerning the  sky can  be found in
Snorri Sturleson's  Prose Edda, not because of any early
contacts  between  Skandanavia  and  Egypt,  but because
these people   obviously saw the same sky. These stories
are fragments of racial memory,  bits  and  pieces  of a
picture which can be put together with just a little bit
of effort.

     Prior to the flood,  we were  a planet  of Saturns.
The  North  pole  faced  Saturn  directly,  and  we hung
perilously close to the  small star.   The gravitational
interaction  between  the  star  and planet was intense;
particals and debris were trapped in between permanently
and picked  up the  glow of the star, resembling a great
mountain rising straight  from  the  North  Pole  to the
star,  the  myth  of  the  god  on the mountain, Zeus on
Olympus, Jahveh  on Zion  etc.  Creatures  living in the
gravitational tug of war which existed then got big, 200
pound birds which couldn't  fly  today,  Brontosaurs and
Ultrasaurs which couldn't even walk today, even in water
since their feet, having no adaptation  for water, would
sink hopelessly into the mud on river bottoms.  

     Why couldn't  a 200 lb. bird fly?  When animals get
bigger, their weight goes up in proportion to  volumn, a
cubed figure.   Strength only  goes up  in proportion to
cross sections of bones  and muscles,  a squared figure;
that is  why you  never see 200 lb. gymnists even though
you do see splendid athletes over  200 lbs,  they simply
don't  have  the  power-to-weight  ratio.   Every  other
measure of the bodies  efficiency goes  up in proportion
to other  squared figures:  your ability to breathe goes
up in proportion  to  surface  area  of  lungs,  to cool
yourself in  proportion to total body surface area, and,
of course, surface area of wings is vital to birds.  The
largest birds  which fly  in OUR world hang in around 12
to  25  pounds  and  all  have  major  difficulties with
takeoffs and  landings, the worst case being albatrosses
which sailors call goonie-birds for that reason.

     The heiroglyphs for Ra, Atum, Osiris etc., names at
various  time  periods  for  the elder god of Egypt, are
basically  just  pictures  of  a  star  inside  a  ring,
pictures  of  Saturn.   Usually  the ringed star sits on
either a pyramid shaped mound or, as in the case  of the
loop at  the top  of the  ankh symbol, atop the Egyptian
symbol  for  a  pillar   or   structural   support.   In
E. A. Wallis Budge's  The Book of the Dead (1895), Dover
paperback version available  cheaply,  several different
versions of  these pictures  can be seen.  One symbol is
nearly exactly what I have  described,  a  dot  inside a
circle supported by three lightning forks in the form of
a  triangle  which  appears  in  any  word  meaning  "to
brighten" or  "illuminate".  The  glyph for Ra takes the
form of a humanized  god  sitting  on  his  haunches and
either a  dot inside a circle or a hoop snake with a dot
inside the coil.  The  word Khut  (mound of  glory) is a
circle atop  a mound.  A five point star inside a circle
appears on page 10, the word tuat.  Often these pictures
take  the  form  of  a  star  inside  a  half-circle  or
crescent, all  atop a pyramid,  indicating that Saturn's
ring showed  phases, since  the crescent is variously to
one or the other side, or above or below the  star.  The
term "paut neteru" (substance of the gods) recurs in the
book;  it is pictured as a ring  with one  side widened,
the other  side narrowed  to a point.  The Moslem symbol
of a star inside a crescent  is basically  this picture,
not a  picture of  the sun inside a crescent moon (which
no one has ever seen).

     King's crowns and the  idea of  angels having halos
are  racial   memories  of  the  god  inside  the  ring.
Likewise, the notion of the old man living  at the North
Pole who brings gifts for children.  

     Hesiod,  in  "Works  and  Days"  and  Ovid, in "The
Metamorphoses" use identical  language  in  describing a
"Golden  Age  of  Man"  when Kronos (Saturn) was king of
heaven (the sun).  The ancient world was of  one mind in
believing that  age to  have been  a far better one than
theirs.  However, that age  came  crashing  down  with a
stellar blowout  INSIDE our solar system followed, seven
days later, by the Noachian deluge.  Twice in Genesis in
the story  of Noah (Genesis 7:4 and 7:10) the seven days
prior  to  the  flood  are  mentioned.   The  only other
reference to  these days  in the old testament occurs in
Isiah 30:26 "Moreover the light of the moon  shall be as
the light  of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be
sevenfold, as the light of the seven days..."  This was
the basis of all of the ancient seven day light festiv-
als, Hanukah, the Roman Saturnalia etc.

     The solar system was a  long time settling into its
present  state  after  the  flood.  Part of the story of
these times is told in Velikovsky's  major book, "Worlds
in Collision"  which is worth reading.  Saturn was still
visible for a long time afterwards and was worshipped as
Osiris,  god   of  the   dead,  by  the  Egyptians,  the
prototypical ressurection  story.  Lest  anyone have any
doubts  that  these  Egyptians  saw a different sky than
ours, the following are  direct quotes  from the various
hymns  to  Osiris  in  the  Dover  paperback  version of
Budge's "Egyptian Book of the Dead":

page 250  "..thou risest, coming forth from the  god Nu.
          Thou  hast  come  with  thy splendors and thou
          hast made heaven  and  earth  bright  with thy
          rays of PURE EMERALD LIGHT"

page 251  "...thou dost  arise in  the horizen of heaven
          and  shed  upon  the  world  beams  of emerald
          light;..."

page 254  "..Through thee  the world waxeth green before
          the might of Neb-er  tcher.... Thy body  is of
          gold,  thy  head  of  azure, and emerald light
          encircleth thee.."

     The pictures of Osiris in human form on the pyramid
walls were, of course, green.

ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) (07/10/85)

[]
I'm reminded of a conversation a friend of mine had in the mid 1960s.
He was talking to a specialist in ancient near eastern history who
remarked that Velikovsky's grasp of mythology and ancient history was
pathetic, but his knowledge of science was impressive.  Oddly enough,
my friend (an astronomer) had the opposite opinion.
-- 

"Don't argue with a fool.      Ethan Vishniac
 Borrow his money."            {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
                               Department of Astronomy
                               University of Texas

gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/23/85)

   This is just a short note cautioning people concerning the celestial
dynamics of Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision".  It is the failure of
"Worlds" to obey basic Newtonian physics that gathers the well deserved
criticism.

   As I understand, I. Velikovsky was essentially a Talmudic scholar
that sought to establish a different chronology for the first few books
of the Bible.  He tried to show that the Pentateuch was much older than
what was accepted by most scholars and that the persons mentioned in
the books corresponded to much older personalities of ancient Egypt and
what is now the middle East.  During his studies, Velikovsky came upon
similar references in several sources to a grand catastrophe that had
a profound influence all over the Earth.  These sources all referred to
this catastrophe as coming from the sky.  The time was approximately
1500 BC.

   Sometime between 1200 BC and 1800 BC (1500 BC is as good as any), an 
island (Santorini?) in the Mediterranean became a major volcano.  The
location and timing are appropriate for this to have been the basis of
the Atlantis legends (if the original distances and times are divided by 10),
and the cause of some of the Plagues of Egypt brought by Moses if Velikovsky's
new chronology is accepted.  Unfortunately, Velikovsky chose not to rest
on his laurels but gathered some followers and pursued the "Worlds" hypothesis.

   The major problem with Velikovsky's proposal in "Worlds" is that the
motions of the planetary bodies fail to conserve momentum.  He presents
some planets moving from their orbits by objects that leave no other traces,
and the planets assuming new orbits without any mechanism to absorb the
excess momentum above what would be required for the new orbit.  Some of
the predictions for the conditions on some planets are close to what are
observed and others are in conflict.  These comparisons are made after
probes have passed near these planets and returned their pictures and
measurements.

   Velikovsky may have an interesting rendition of classical mythologies
but his celestial mechanics and planetary astronomy are bad.  The "Worlds"
hypothesis is incomplete at best and incorrect at worst.  However, I wonder
what Velikovsky has to do with the issue of the origins of life on Earth
and the validity of creationism as a science.

                            Patrick Wyant
                            AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL)
                            *!iham1!gjphw

mcewan@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/25/85)

An excellent article. It was the best laugh I've had all day. However, I
think future submissions should go to net.jokes.

			Scott McEwan
			{ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan

"They're clumsy. They're out of shape. They're dead."