ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden) (07/10/85)
In "Worlds in Collision", Immanuel Velikovsky gave the world the key to the language which the ancients used to describe THEIR world. The proofs of the general thesis of the book rely heavily upon a radical re-interpretation of a great deal of the literature which we call mythology. Modern science has not yet accepted this thesis because it doesn't yet accept the validity of these basic lines of argument. Establishment scientists are just now beginning to recognize the inevitability of dealing with catastrophism (the new theories about iridium and dinosaurs), assuming they can be put a comfortable distance in time from us, the usual billions of years. They remain oblivious to the fact that admitting to one global catastrophe ruins all of the assumptions used by any of their systems for dating ANYTHING prior to that castrophe. Velikovsky's date for the most recent such castrophe was about 700 B.C. Establishment science isn't comfortable with that yet; the validity of the theory is relatively unimportant to them. Castrophists have simply gone their own way since, believing it best to let the world catch up when it wants to. Velikovsky's long promised "Worlds in Collision, Chapter II", dealing with the nature of the world prior to the flood, was essentially published in 1981 in the form of "The Saturn Myth" by David Talbott, available from DoubleDay. Articles on the same and similar topics appear regularly in the Kronos Journal, subscriptions ($15/year) from: Kronos P.O. Box 343 Wynnewood, PA 19096 The ancients believed that Jupiter and Saturn had been live stars within the memory of man. Greeks and Romans described the planetary systems of Jupiter and Saturn as the dual systems of dieties, Olympian gods under Zeus (Jupiter), and Titans under Kronos (Saturn). Egyptians described the same thing as a "double Ennead", the systems of Set and Horus. They believed there had been an ORBITING mantel of water, not clouds, high over the world; that one hadn't needed be but so much of a prophet to know it was going to fall some day. They described the sky as the primeval watery abyss. The first paragraph of Genesis refers to the sky as a firmamemt built to seperate the waters above from the waters below. The great hymns to Osiris in the Egyptian Book of the Dead refer to Osiris as having fashioned man and the primeval watery abyss of the sky. Nearly identical language concerning the sky can be found in Snorri Sturleson's Prose Edda, not because of any early contacts between Skandanavia and Egypt, but because these people obviously saw the same sky. These stories are fragments of racial memory, bits and pieces of a picture which can be put together with just a little bit of effort. Prior to the flood, we were a planet of Saturns. The North pole faced Saturn directly, and we hung perilously close to the small star. The gravitational interaction between the star and planet was intense; particals and debris were trapped in between permanently and picked up the glow of the star, resembling a great mountain rising straight from the North Pole to the star, the myth of the god on the mountain, Zeus on Olympus, Jahveh on Zion etc. Creatures living in the gravitational tug of war which existed then got big, 200 pound birds which couldn't fly today, Brontosaurs and Ultrasaurs which couldn't even walk today, even in water since their feet, having no adaptation for water, would sink hopelessly into the mud on river bottoms. Why couldn't a 200 lb. bird fly? When animals get bigger, their weight goes up in proportion to volumn, a cubed figure. Strength only goes up in proportion to cross sections of bones and muscles, a squared figure; that is why you never see 200 lb. gymnists even though you do see splendid athletes over 200 lbs, they simply don't have the power-to-weight ratio. Every other measure of the bodies efficiency goes up in proportion to other squared figures: your ability to breathe goes up in proportion to surface area of lungs, to cool yourself in proportion to total body surface area, and, of course, surface area of wings is vital to birds. The largest birds which fly in OUR world hang in around 12 to 25 pounds and all have major difficulties with takeoffs and landings, the worst case being albatrosses which sailors call goonie-birds for that reason. The heiroglyphs for Ra, Atum, Osiris etc., names at various time periods for the elder god of Egypt, are basically just pictures of a star inside a ring, pictures of Saturn. Usually the ringed star sits on either a pyramid shaped mound or, as in the case of the loop at the top of the ankh symbol, atop the Egyptian symbol for a pillar or structural support. In E. A. Wallis Budge's The Book of the Dead (1895), Dover paperback version available cheaply, several different versions of these pictures can be seen. One symbol is nearly exactly what I have described, a dot inside a circle supported by three lightning forks in the form of a triangle which appears in any word meaning "to brighten" or "illuminate". The glyph for Ra takes the form of a humanized god sitting on his haunches and either a dot inside a circle or a hoop snake with a dot inside the coil. The word Khut (mound of glory) is a circle atop a mound. A five point star inside a circle appears on page 10, the word tuat. Often these pictures take the form of a star inside a half-circle or crescent, all atop a pyramid, indicating that Saturn's ring showed phases, since the crescent is variously to one or the other side, or above or below the star. The term "paut neteru" (substance of the gods) recurs in the book; it is pictured as a ring with one side widened, the other side narrowed to a point. The Moslem symbol of a star inside a crescent is basically this picture, not a picture of the sun inside a crescent moon (which no one has ever seen). King's crowns and the idea of angels having halos are racial memories of the god inside the ring. Likewise, the notion of the old man living at the North Pole who brings gifts for children. Hesiod, in "Works and Days" and Ovid, in "The Metamorphoses" use identical language in describing a "Golden Age of Man" when Kronos (Saturn) was king of heaven (the sun). The ancient world was of one mind in believing that age to have been a far better one than theirs. However, that age came crashing down with a stellar blowout INSIDE our solar system followed, seven days later, by the Noachian deluge. Twice in Genesis in the story of Noah (Genesis 7:4 and 7:10) the seven days prior to the flood are mentioned. The only other reference to these days in the old testament occurs in Isiah 30:26 "Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of the seven days..." This was the basis of all of the ancient seven day light festiv- als, Hanukah, the Roman Saturnalia etc. The solar system was a long time settling into its present state after the flood. Part of the story of these times is told in Velikovsky's major book, "Worlds in Collision" which is worth reading. Saturn was still visible for a long time afterwards and was worshipped as Osiris, god of the dead, by the Egyptians, the prototypical ressurection story. Lest anyone have any doubts that these Egyptians saw a different sky than ours, the following are direct quotes from the various hymns to Osiris in the Dover paperback version of Budge's "Egyptian Book of the Dead": page 250 "..thou risest, coming forth from the god Nu. Thou hast come with thy splendors and thou hast made heaven and earth bright with thy rays of PURE EMERALD LIGHT" page 251 "...thou dost arise in the horizen of heaven and shed upon the world beams of emerald light;..." page 254 "..Through thee the world waxeth green before the might of Neb-er tcher.... Thy body is of gold, thy head of azure, and emerald light encircleth thee.." The pictures of Osiris in human form on the pyramid walls were, of course, green.
ethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) (07/10/85)
[] I'm reminded of a conversation a friend of mine had in the mid 1960s. He was talking to a specialist in ancient near eastern history who remarked that Velikovsky's grasp of mythology and ancient history was pathetic, but his knowledge of science was impressive. Oddly enough, my friend (an astronomer) had the opposite opinion. -- "Don't argue with a fool. Ethan Vishniac Borrow his money." {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas
gjphw@iham1.UUCP (wyant) (07/23/85)
This is just a short note cautioning people concerning the celestial dynamics of Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision". It is the failure of "Worlds" to obey basic Newtonian physics that gathers the well deserved criticism. As I understand, I. Velikovsky was essentially a Talmudic scholar that sought to establish a different chronology for the first few books of the Bible. He tried to show that the Pentateuch was much older than what was accepted by most scholars and that the persons mentioned in the books corresponded to much older personalities of ancient Egypt and what is now the middle East. During his studies, Velikovsky came upon similar references in several sources to a grand catastrophe that had a profound influence all over the Earth. These sources all referred to this catastrophe as coming from the sky. The time was approximately 1500 BC. Sometime between 1200 BC and 1800 BC (1500 BC is as good as any), an island (Santorini?) in the Mediterranean became a major volcano. The location and timing are appropriate for this to have been the basis of the Atlantis legends (if the original distances and times are divided by 10), and the cause of some of the Plagues of Egypt brought by Moses if Velikovsky's new chronology is accepted. Unfortunately, Velikovsky chose not to rest on his laurels but gathered some followers and pursued the "Worlds" hypothesis. The major problem with Velikovsky's proposal in "Worlds" is that the motions of the planetary bodies fail to conserve momentum. He presents some planets moving from their orbits by objects that leave no other traces, and the planets assuming new orbits without any mechanism to absorb the excess momentum above what would be required for the new orbit. Some of the predictions for the conditions on some planets are close to what are observed and others are in conflict. These comparisons are made after probes have passed near these planets and returned their pictures and measurements. Velikovsky may have an interesting rendition of classical mythologies but his celestial mechanics and planetary astronomy are bad. The "Worlds" hypothesis is incomplete at best and incorrect at worst. However, I wonder what Velikovsky has to do with the issue of the origins of life on Earth and the validity of creationism as a science. Patrick Wyant AT&T Bell Laboratories (Naperville, IL) *!iham1!gjphw
mcewan@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA (07/25/85)
An excellent article. It was the best laugh I've had all day. However, I think future submissions should go to net.jokes. Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan "They're clumsy. They're out of shape. They're dead."