[net.origins] The Bible -- a reliable source of information about God

pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) (08/19/85)

	This is a response to Rick Frey's article in which he finds fault
with some of the conclusions I come to about the Damager-God. He seems
to be saying that God does both good and evil, so why should He be labeled
singularly evil. I would like to answer his points here.

	I don't understand why He should be given ``credit'' for things
that happen as part of the natural course of nature. Clearly the
destructive things that occurred, such as the flood, the demolition of
Sodom and Gomorrah, and so on, were events that were deliberate and not
part of a natural flow. Saving the Israelites in battles where they were
outnumbered? The modern day Israelis achieved the same thing, through
totally natural means like clever military strategy. Besides, I made
reference to the way God engages in intermittent (but rare) reinforcement
by ``answering prayers'' on rare occasions and by fabricating stories that
get passed down as gospel truth. Testimonials to these are used to propagate
the lies He has invented.

	You say ``people themselves seem to be on a course for self
destruction,'' as if to absolve God of His responsibility for putting
the obstacles in our way so as to lead us on that course. I was not saying
that God ``created'' entropy; he has been shown not to have created
anything. What I meant was that God is entropy. Whenever the stability
of a system is deliberately damaged, or whenever an attempt by man to
organize and form something is thwarted, you can bet it is the Damager-God's
work. He surely didn't design people at all, Rick. It is only with His
input and influence, through His entropic interference, that we decay.
Your whole paragraph works from the assumption that God is good, which is
obviously false. It is His being involved that ``screws things up'' all
by itself. You say ``It's his world?'' Big deal! It's his world only by
virtue of His power, certainly not by virtue of His worthiness for such a
post. My first article explained why God at best was created along with
the universe, which means His claim to the title of creator is a lie.

	You mention that ``He Himself went through the suffering,'' but
this is also a lie. He sent His son to the dirty work, to suffer the
pains of being human that He bestowed on us. This is typical of what we
can expect from this God. The idea that a perfect benevolent God would
deliberately create ``fallen'' humans in an imperfect (damaged) world
sounds good. But it only holds water if you assume this God is perfect
and benevolent, which we have little reason to do. Are we ``fallen,''
or were we pushed?

	You said that ``in this world'' perfection must be achieved through
suffering. Of course, God made it that way. He damaged the natural course
of events to impede the path to perfection for people. You can analyze
that in terms of ``if God was good, what would be His motivation for doing
this?'' But if God is not good, you don't have to do that at all. If God
is evil, it's clear He did it out of malevolence. Perhaps He Himself was
unable to achieve perfection (it's clear He is nowhere near perfect) and
and thwarts us out of jealousy and revenge. You also say how much more
rejoiceful it is if sinners are saved than if people are just always
faithful. What you've done is to show that God simply likes to stack
the deck in His favor, by forcing those circumstances in which that is
more likely. Furthermore, there's very little good to be said about being
faithful to such a God.

	When you say that my conclusions are similar to typical father/son
relationships, you show that you've fallen for God's ``I am your loving
father'' joke, hook, line and sinker. I think your making that comparison
just epitomizes how some abused children still cling to and love their
abusive parents. This is not an example of a child not liking the
restrictions of his parents. This is an example of an abusive malevolent
prankster being reviled by those He plays His pranks upon for His pleasure.

> "For god so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..."  John 3:16
> "But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were
> yet sinners, Christ died for us."  Romans 5:28

	Remember that this is God's word, and as such we cannot trust it.
Did He care about this son? Did He treat Him the way He treated His other
``children?'' You said that the Bible is a perfect circle, covering itself
completely. Yes, it is a document written by God designed to give a false
impression about Him, to convince people to glorify and whorship Him. Its
content is deceptive and cannot be used directly to evaluate God. Only
through knowledge about what God is really trying to say and do, the ``intent'' not the ``content'', can we begin to discover how evil He really is.

	I have to sit here puzzled by those who continue to believe in and
whorship God in light of all of this. The Bible says ``There are none so
blind as those who will not see.'' Why are these people ignoring the
advice of their own Bible in this matter? I am surprised that someone like
Dan Boscovich or Paul DuBois has not stepped forward to speak for their
beliefs. They seem to me to be the type who will hold to their beliefs
at all cost, even in the face of evidence against them of the type that I
have presented. I am not surprised that people like them would cling to
their beliefs about God no matter what. Maybe they would feel lost without
them. But I'm a bit surprised that none of them has stepped forward to
attempt a rebuttal of my evidence. Perhaps they fear an unequivocal loss
in such a debate would damage their own belief system and force them to
abandon it. In that case, I can see their reason for remaining silent.
-- 
Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories
pyuxn!pez

ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (08/26/85)

Hmm, I'm kind of stuck between seeing the sincerity of what you're
saying but also seeing the immediate gainsaying of almost every point I
made without any real support for what you've said.  I believe that what
you wrote was not a parody, but you accuse the believers in the 'good'
God of not thinking and then you turn around and say the 'proof' is on
your side and that I just haven't seen.

Let me start with a reference you made to having proven that God was
created (at best) in your first article.  Your entire proof was that
since you could ask the question who created God He must not have
existed eternally and that someone had created Him.  But that is absolutely
no proof whatsoever.  It's your opinion and it doesn't hold water at all.
If you can imagine an infinite God, a deity as we normally think of them,
there's little problem in imagining it having existed eternally.  But even
if you don't like that idea, you still haven't proven anything other than
that you can ask a difficult question.

A second point you seem to feel you can use authoritatively is that the
Bible is a lie and that God is evil.  You responded to a number of my
arguments by simply discounting the Bible and saying that it was a
collection of stories created to propagate these lies about God.  But other
than your 'observations' on the state of the world, where do you get your
evidence from?  This logical inference you seem to base so much weight on,
that the world is in bad shape, God exists so therefor God is bad, does not
stand as any type of 'proof' whatsoever and even as a logical deduction it
leaves alot to be desired as do its corollaries as you have drawn them.

Just to hit on a few side points, you say that God copped out on saving the
world by sending His Son to come and die.  That's a way of looking at it IF
you ignore the Bible.  The Bible says that Christ was God (sorry any of you
out there who'll disagree with this) so God did come down and pay the price
that He asked for from people.  His Son was Himself.  God in no way copped
out.  He suffered humiliation and all of the things you said He did, while
being God.  What you started off on Christ being the Antichrist??  That made
very little sense.  No where in the Bible does it say anything about Satan
having control of the earth for a thousand years after Christ's return.  It
says that Satan will be bound, "And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent
of old, who is the devil and Satan and bound him for a thousand years" (Rev
20:2) but no where does it say anything about Satan ruling for a thousand
years.  And the picture of the antichrist that Revelation paints (which you
don't believe in) is nothing like what the Bible (which again you disbelieve
so where are you getting this info on Christ being the antichrist?) says
about Christ.  Forgive the schizophrenia of that last sentance.

Another thing you said that was unfounded was discounting my examples of
God's miracles.  When Sarah and Abraham had a child, the Bible records that
Sarah was to old to have a child.  You might still say that the Bible is
God's method of bringing lies, but don't say that it was "part of the natural
course of nature."  Also, you said that the Jews were extraordinary fighters
so that makes God's claim to saving them in battle void again.  But neither
the Jews nor the Bible supports your arguments.  The Jews believed that God
gave them victories in battle (so it's not simply a christian doctrine) and
just look at some of the odds the Jews faced.  In the story of Gideon, God
supposedly has an army of 22,000 cut down to 300 and they have to face an
army of 120,000 (Judges 7 and 8).  If you want to argue that this is an
example of God's intermittent reinforcement or just another one of His lies,
ok, but don't account for it by Jewish military prowess.  300 against
120,000 doesn't work in any military strategy.

In your response to Beth Christy you said that God has built into us a wish
to see Him as a 'father-figure'.  But if we evolved, how does God accomplish
this building in process?  And another question that's a little off in left
field.  If God was created and is evil, doesn't that necessitate another
evil, damager God behind Him that created Him?  And if that's the case, then
who created the first, evil damager God?  Or can damager Gods exist from
eternity and just not good Gods?

You make two points that apart are fine but when taken together ruin your
whole argument.  You say that God is this destructive force, always on the
prowl for things to break or ruin and also that it's easy to point the
figure and place the blame on something else.  But don't you think that
applies to some of the problems in the world today?  Are you really going to
say it was God's fault that Charles Manson murdered all those people or that
whatever the guy's name was shot all those people in the McDonald's in San
Ysidro?  Is that God's doing or is that you're just passing the buck of
human wrotteness (at least in these instances) to some 'evil God' such that
people are no longer responsible for what they do?  Why place ALL the evil
on God?  Natural disasters and the like I'll give you alot more credit that
seeing God as kind and loving is a little more difficult, but saying that
God "put's the obstacles in our way so as to lead us on that course" is a
complete negation of human free will and responsibility.  Are you saying
that we really have no choice in the matter and that we're all puppets or
can we respond to these 'obstacles' in different matters such that evil out
of our own free will is what this evil, damager God wants?

Wow, after rereading your last paragraph in your response to my first
response to your first article (I hope that makes sense) the challenge you
issued is blown out of proportion.  You seem to feel you have offered
conclusive 'evidence' that God is evil, that people are simply victims of
this evil God, the Bible is a sham and all sorts of other things that you
simply state and restate, but I'm somewhat confused as to which particular
things you cling to as 'conclusive' evidence?  As to why they (Paul Dubois
or Don Boskovich) haven't stepped forward, I can offer one possible
explanation.  You simply discounted every argument I offered without
offering any reasoning whatsoever other that your basic assumption which I'm
challenging (I'm sure alot of people are nodding their heads that that's
what alot of the Christian's posting on the net have done).  I disagree that
God is entropy and I still stick word for word to my original statement that
without God's influence and support, this world and mankind will decay and
that God (who did create the world and men) is not the destructive force but
the force that wants to restate mankind to their original position of
fellowship with God that they willingly broke.

				Rick Frey

dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (08/29/85)

>  As to why they (Paul Dubois
>or Don Boskovich) haven't stepped forward, I can offer one possible


  Well, I see that my silence concerning Mr. Zimmerman's Evil-Damager-god
  theory has him in wonder. When I first read your article, Mr. Z, I
  felt it was pointless to respond. However, I did think that Rick Frey's
  response was quite good and said just about everything I would have
  wanted to say. But, I have changed my mind now and have decided to
  respond after all.

  What I am really interested in is what happened to you to bring you
  to this conclusion. It would appear that at one time you probably
  considered yourself a Christian, but was hurt by something or someone.
  More likely you were hurt several times.

  I know that you can not possibly really believe your theory without
  being some sort of monster. To believe that an evil God is in control
  of the universe, you would no doubt be an evil madman yourself.

  More likely you have been hurt and are trying to hurt back. You are
  trying to hurt God for letting such things happen to you when, after
  all, you were only trying to serve Him. Or, maybe someone very close
  to you was hurt! Something has hurt you and has caused you to be bitter
  towards God! And now it is your turn to do some hurting!

  Well, you have succeeded! You have surely hurt God by your description
  of Him. You have also hurt the rest of God's people. In first Corinthians
  chapter 12 it says how the body of Christ is like a human body. It has
  many members and when one member suffers the whole body suffers. If you
  are suffering, we are suffering with you.

  Please consider these words:

  We all suffer disapointments. We all suffer pain and loss in our lives.
  We all question God's wisdom and love at times. I have been so angry
  at God for "letting" certain things happen to me that I have questoned
  Him. I have yelled and screamed at Him. I have shaken my fist at Him.
  But when it was all over and I felt worse for my trouble, He was still
  there waiting for me to calm down and seek His wisdom and comfort.

  The Apostle Paul considered it an honor to suffer for Him. Paul said
  it brought him closer to Christ when he suffered. Peter said much the
  same thing. Millions have suffered and died for Him. Why? Because they
  had truly experienced His love, joy, and peace. These things are worth
  giving up world possessions and even life. That is why James can say,
  "Consider it all joy when you go through various trials!" These trials
  and suffering can cause us to seek Gods love and comfort in such a way
  that we never would have had our life been a bed of roses! I believe
  David said, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted!"  Why? For
  the reasons I just said. Paul said, "...that I might know the FELLOWSHIP
  of His suffering."

  Have you suffered as much as God has, MR. Z? To leave His place in glory
  and become human flesh only to be tortured, ridiculed, and killed by
  His own children, can hardly be compared to the suffering most of us
  have gone through. Yet there is another difference. We deserve it! He
  didn't!

  If you don't see Gods love being offered to you, I truly feel sorry for
  you and will remember you in my prayers. It is there waiting for you.
  Don't let your suffering and pain keep you from the only lasting cure
  for it. An evil-damager-god would have zapped you and me out a long time
  ago. A loving, gracious, and merciful God waits patiently for us to
  look up!

  I bought my wife a little plaque about a year ago! I couldn't resist it
  because it said these words which immediately struck my heart:

  "I asked Jesus (God) how much He loved me; He said, 'This much!' Then He
  streched out His hands and died!"


					     Sincerely,

						  Dan

mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (09/01/85)

In article <396@scgvaxd.UUCP> dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) writes:
>   What I am really interested in is what happened to you to bring you
>   to this conclusion. It would appear that at one time you probably
>   considered yourself a Christian, but was hurt by something or someone.
>   More likely you were hurt several times.
> 
>   I know that you can not possibly really believe your theory without
>   being some sort of monster. To believe that an evil God is in control
>   of the universe, you would no doubt be an evil madman yourself.
> 
>   More likely you have been hurt and are trying to hurt back. You are
>   trying to hurt God for letting such things happen to you when, after
>   all, you were only trying to serve Him. Or, maybe someone very close
>   to you was hurt! Something has hurt you and has caused you to be bitter
>   towards God! And now it is your turn to do some hurting!

What a pompous, insulting, and fallacious ad-hominem argument!
(I'd compare it to something from 1984's Ministry of Love, except
that coming from Dan it's [fortunately] laughable.)

Let us consider an analogous situation to living in a maltheistic
universe: living in Uganda under Idi Amin or Cambodia under Pol Pot.
Obviously you wouldn't have to be personally hurt or be a monster to
recognize the reality of their depravity.

>   Well, you have succeeded! You have surely hurt God by your description
>   of Him. You have also hurt the rest of God's people. In first Corinthians
>   chapter 12 it says how the body of Christ is like a human body. It has
>   many members and when one member suffers the whole body suffers. If you
>   are suffering, we are suffering with you.

More Orwellian rhetoric.  The next step is to "cure" him against his will
of problems brought about by the maltheistic deity.  Just as the Soviets
"cure" dissadents in asylums....

>   Please consider these words:
> 
>   We all suffer disapointments. We all suffer pain and loss in our lives.
>   We all question God's wisdom and love at times. I have been so angry
>   at God for "letting" certain things happen to me that I have questoned
>   Him. I have yelled and screamed at Him. I have shaken my fist at Him.
>   But when it was all over and I felt worse for my trouble, He was still
>   there waiting for me to calm down and seek His wisdom and comfort.

You may yeall and scream at prison bars: when you stop they're still
there.  And you find that reassuring?

>   Have you suffered as much as God has, MR. Z? To leave His place in glory
>   and become human flesh only to be tortured, ridiculed, and killed by
>   His own children, can hardly be compared to the suffering most of us
>   have gone through. Yet there is another difference. We deserve it! He
>   didn't!

What a twisted argument!  What makes you think (assuming the idea
that the bible is superficially true) that JC really hurt?  He just as
easily could have fooled us, with a fleshy automaton mistaken
for a god, to load more guilt upon gullible fools who say things like
"we deserve it!"

>   If you don't see Gods love being offered to you, I truly feel sorry for
>   you and will remember you in my prayers. It is there waiting for you.
>   Don't let your suffering and pain keep you from the only lasting cure
>   for it. An evil-damager-god would have zapped you and me out a long time
>   ago. A loving, gracious, and merciful God waits patiently for us to
>   look up!

Your stubborn adherance to this mind-boggling inanity provides all the
evidence I need to prefer the damager-god theory to yours.

>   I bought my wife a little plaque about a year ago! I couldn't resist it
>   because it said these words which immediately struck my heart:
> 
>   "I asked Jesus (God) how much He loved me; He said, 'This much!' Then He
>   streched out His hands and died!"

Does this mean you want your wife to die?  What sick and perverted
symbolism.  Next to Christianity, satanic rock and roll seems innocent.
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh

tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/04/85)

While I disagree with both Boskovich and Zimmerman, Boskovich's message was
an extremely low and disgusting one.  The most insulting tactic you can use
in argument is to disregard the content of what your opponent is saying and
instead spend your time claiming that some psychological trauma caused your
opponent's belief system.  Once again Boskovich shows his true colors.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking
ARPA:	Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K	uucp:	seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:	74176,1360	audio:	shout "Hey, Tim!"