dolan@ihnp1.UUCP (Mike Dolan) (03/12/84)
"rabbit!jj" in an earlier article claimed that the ability to exist outside of the womb without extraordinary mechanical support was the distinguishing criteria of a human being. In a followup to that article I asked stated that if that criteria was applied evenly, someone on a life-support system in a critical care unit of a hospital would not be considered human. I asked how that fact could be reconciled with the stated claim. In a response, "rabbit!jj" said that my question was irrelevant because "A human being on a heart/lung machine is ALREADY a human being." My question is not irrelevant. If the ability to live outside the womb without extraordinary mechanical support is the basis for declaring someone to be a human being, then the absence of that ability is the basis for declaring someone to no longer be a human being. "rabbit!jj's" statement that I quoted above implies some other attribute that makes one a human being. I will stick my neck out and interpret what I think is the underlying thought in the above quote. I stand ready to be corrected if I am wrong. It seems that "rabbit!jj" is stating that when a child can live outside the womb without extraordinary mechanical support, it has proven itself to be a human being. Which is a much different statement than that the ability to live outside the womb without extraordinary mechanical support is what makes one a human being. So, let me go back to my original question. If the newly born child is a human being, and the fertilized ovum is not, then what is it that makes that "thing" into a human being during the time in the womb, and when does it occur? Have a good day, Mike Dolan AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihnp1!dolan
jj@rabbit.UUCP (03/12/84)
Well, Mike, your qeustion was indeed irrevelant. Your summation of my answer isn't far wrong. You state quite clearly the point at which a fetus becomes a human (at least according to me, except for the use of the maliciously emotional "proves" in the statement, a small dishonesty on your part, as far as I'm concerned). You then ask when a fetus becomes human according to me. I suspect that you are trying to set me up for another falacious argument, and I'm geting sick of it. Please read your own article to find the answer to your question. You answered it quite nicely. I guess I should expect you to use deliberate emotional tricks, and I should expect you to try to mislead the reader into believing that I haven't answered your question when you've even stated the answer yourself, but I don't know why I should have to deal with such an unreasonable method of debate. If you can state my position for yourself, sir, then why do you have to ask again what the position is? <I suspect the answer is to make emotional points with the reader, but I'd like YOU to answer that question and find out what you think is the answer.> Please, as usual, leave religious belief out of the discussion, since that's a matter of faith, and you have neither the right nor the permission to make your faith mine. -- TEDDY BEARS ARE NICER THAN PEOPLE-- HUG YOUR OWN TODAY ! (allegra,harpo,ulysses)!rabbit!jj
jj@rabbit.UUCP (03/12/84)
For a bit of clarification, let's assume that I operate under the following generality: "Once human, always human, until death." That very neatly separates the question of what happens to a person on a heart lung machine. The definition of death is still sticky, and I'll stipulate that. My own somewhat shaky (due to the lack of the human being to forsee the future) definition is that any human is dead if and ONLY if there is no chance that that person can ever function again in any capacity other than a repository for not yet expired bodily organs. I.E. Someone who's cerebral cortex has been totally destroyed is no longer human, even if their heart, lungs, digestive system, and so on are completely intact, but someone in a coma who has a chance of becoming functional again is still alive. <Yes, I know how hard it is to tell. That's why I hesitate to define death any more strongly.> -- TEDDY BEARS ARE NICER THAN PEOPLE-- HUG YOUR OWN TODAY ! (allegra,harpo,ulysses)!rabbit!jj