dolan@ihnp1.UUCP (Mike Dolan) (03/27/84)
<line-eater food> There is one serious misconception stated in two of Kenn's recent replies. In "Re: Pro-which-life(?)" Kenn states: "A fetus can't feel it's death. It can't suffer." That is completely wrong. A fetus can feel and suffer. Experiments have shown that a fetus will in fact learn to shift away from unpleasant sensations. This is in fact one of the most common phenomena. The fetus normally shifts itself around to become more comfortable. When the mother lies down on her back, the fetus will normally shift to one side or the other to avoid having the mother's spine pressing uncomfortably into it. Ask a mother who has been kicked from within while the fetus goes through its gymnastics. In "Re: Who has the right over our bodies?" Kenn states: "Butterflies are abundant, they don't belong to anyone else, and (non-trivia here: ) they die without pain, without realizing their death. If we can accept and do this to something as beautiful and precious as a butterfly, why can't we do it to a fetus?" I find a great distinction between a butterfly and a fetus/child/... I think that at the bottom of this distinction is my understanding of the fetus/child/... as a true human being. Human life is more precious than that of a butterfly. That is a basic axiom that I hold and that is held by our society. I acknowledge that we disagree on whether the fetus/child/... is a human being. However, I cannot equate an unborn child to a butterfly. And I have yet to see an argument here that an unborn child is not a human being that I do not find logical arguments against. Have a good day, Mike Dolan AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihnp1!dolan
ix192@sdccs6.UUCP (03/28/84)
[] From: ...ihnp4!ihnp1!dolan (Mike Dolan) > There is one serious misconception stated in two of Kenn's recent > replies. > > In "Re: Pro-which-life(?)" Kenn states: > > "A fetus can't feel it's death. It can't suffer." > > That is completely wrong. A fetus can feel and suffer. Experiments > have shown that a fetus will in fact learn to shift away from > unpleasant sensations. This is in fact one of the most common > phenomena. The fetus normally shifts itself around to become more > comfortable. When the mother lies down on her back, the fetus will > normally shift to one side or the other to avoid having the mother's > spine pressing uncomfortably into it. Ask a mother who has been > kicked from within while the fetus goes through its gymnastics. Maybe I better try explaining myself more! I don't mean physical pain - almost everyone hurts when they die. I mean the emotional pain, mental anguish, that a person knowing it's death will go through. And I have no faith in the fetus knowing what that first feel of the tube will do. Physical pain is no problem. Everyone gets it, and worst come to worst, we can devise "humane" methods of disposing of a fetus. > In "Re: Who has the right over our bodies?" Kenn states: > > "Butterflies are abundant, they don't belong to anyone > else, and (non-trivia here: ) they die without pain, > without realizing their death. If we can accept and > do this to something as beautiful and precious as a > butterfly, why can't we do it to a fetus?" > > I find a great distinction between a butterfly and a fetus/child/... So do I! I was just trying an abstract model and you took it literally. > I think that at the bottom of this distinction is my understanding > of the fetus/child/... as a true human being. I think of the fetus as being human as well. That has nothing to do with our deciding it's death. We living people can be executed for things we do, why should an unborn being be any more special? > Human life is more > precious than that of a butterfly. That is a basic axiom that I > hold and that is held by our society. I acknowledge that we > disagree on whether the fetus/child/... is a human being. However, > I cannot equate an unborn child to a butterfly. And I have yet to > see an argument here that an unborn child is not a human being that > I do not find logical arguments against. Alas, again I try an intellectually abstract model, and again it gets taken literally. I'm not trying to say that the fetus is not human. I agree very strongly that it is. However I do not believe it has as much "pull" in this decision as the mother. It has some, but the parents have so much more. With all the abstract butterfly modeling, I was trying to show a balance between the mother and fetus's potential deaths and sufferings. Most people would choose a quick death than a long, stretched out torture (not over years, but for over a few hours anyway). Babies can be unhappy, but they won't realize they are the cause of their parent's unhappiness for several years. Hence they won't feel mental anguish. The parents will, and depending on their condition they may get over it in a month, maybe in a year, maybe never. Let's assume the parents never tell the child it was unwanted, so the kid will never know. You have two sides of the balance now - the results of the abortion and the results of the absence of one. If the abortion is performed and sucessful (and in these abstract models they always are), the fetus experiences a little physical pain, and dies. The mother and father are no longer in danger of having to give up and change their present lives. The abortion side of the scale has physical pain, and a death. If the abortion is aborted (an irony of fate, huh?), the kid will live, happily. No problems with him. The parents, on the other hand, go through changes. If they have no other children, chances are they didn't want this one because they weren't ready for it. Boom - mother has to quit job/school to take care of baby, perhaps long enough to throw away her career. Potential loss of mother's future, of most of her dreams. Pain. Family income now has another load to take care of. Perhaps father's job can handle it painlessly, perhaps not. Mostly not. The parent's will have to give up something to make ends meet. Probably luxurys. Perhaps father gets a second job. Stress, pain. That fetus's influence goes on and on - the time parents have together, respect from family members, opinions of bosses, blame from parents on those responsible for un-attainable abortion (perhaps eachother), changes in social status, the lost loving of the parents because of the baby's presence. I put have everything here in my mental scale, and I feel that the great pain and suffering put to two living and lived human beings weights much more than the quick death of an unsuffering and unthinking human being. I ask you to do the same kind of thing: How much pain and suffering will you accept to justify the death of their cause? Kenn the Kenf ...!sdcsvax!kenn ...!sdcsvax!sdccs6!ix192 ...!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!kenn