jbf@ccieng5.UUCP (Jens Bernhard Fiederer) (04/23/84)
>Even given the neo-Malthusian problems in his argument, I find it hard to >accept the idea that most modern (middle-class, urban, working) women are >aborting fetuses for reasons of overpopulation (overcrowding in their condos, >perhaps?) I hate to disillusion you, but most modern women are not urban middle-class working women. There is a world outside the condos. >Also, I just don't understand how people argue problems of ethics >from scientific Darwinian evidence! Human lives may or may not be >"precious" to Nature, given floods, population pressures, natural >disasters, etc. But that does not address the issues of how we are >to treat each other, unless one wishes to abandon ethics entirely >in deference to the Natural Order. A system of ethics not conforming to the Natural Order would seem artificial and self-defeating. Try a system of ethics BASED on the natural order. Till Eulenspiegel -- "Some people are eccentric, but I am just plain odd" Reachable as ....allegra![rayssd,rlgvax]!ccieng5!jbf
sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) (04/25/84)
>I hate to disillusion you, but most modern women are not urban >middle-class working women. There is a world outside the condos. My parenthetical expression "modern (middle-class, urban, working) women" was misunderstood. Delete the parentheses, replace then with commas. I think then you should understand my point, which was to deflate the previously stated argument that upper and middle-class Americans are getting abortions because of reasons of overpopulation. Let's be honest--they're getting abortions because they don't want the kid (for whatever personal reasons they might have--population pressures aren't one of them.) >A system of ethics not conforming to the Natural Order would seem >artificial and self-defeating. Try a system of ethics BASED on >the natural order. I wonder if we both are using the same definitions of words here. I don't wish to get into an argument because of a misunderstanding. Let's me restate it without using such a red herring phrase as "Natural Order." Evolutionary theory, natural selection, and "survival of the fittest" are wonderful scientific models which explain how species evolve and change form. Anthropological studies of primate societies and human cultures tell us a lot about their behavior. What science CANNOT do is to tell us how we should act towards each other. Recently, we've seen several articles attempting to invent a new ethical system based on the "evidence" supplied by these, and other, sciences. I would not have thought it possible that people would ever argue that infanticide should be OK because primates do it or the ancient Greeks did it. Who would have thought that an phrase like "survival of the fittest" would be misused today, much as it was in the 19th century, as a justification for the mistreatment of those weaker than ourselves? Me, I'm just flabbergasted--I must be naive. This is, of course, a bit off the topic of abortion, but it reflects where the discussion has wandered. -- /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA
jbf@ccieng5.UUCP (Jens Bernhard Fiederer) (04/27/84)
>In a system of ethics "based on the natural order," killing for no apparent >reason would be considered the norm. Check into Jane Goodall's (sp?) account >of the war waged within the chimpanzee group she has spent so many years >observing. Do you really want to live in that kind of a society????? The system of ethics should be based on the natural order. I suppose that needs a certain amount of explication. I never said people should strive to imitate chimpanzees. There may be certain differences. Most humans do not want to live in a society of random killing (I must confess this is pure speculation -- I have little statistical support for that statement besides the laws against murder -- but most people do want to drive over 55 (this follows from observation on highways) and there are laws against it anyway), so it seems natural to pass laws to protect ourselves. This seems natural enough to me, but entirely amoral. Birbal -- "Some people are eccentric, but I am just plain odd" Reachable as ....allegra![rayssd,rlgvax]!ccieng5!jbf