arndt@smurf.DEC (06/19/84)
No no Doug. It is not murder to kill a carrot or an unborn child because neither is intelligent (what is YOUR definition of intelligence) but because you don't WANT it to be murder in the case of the child. After all, animals are intelligent and we don't "murder"them, do we? Or are you really some kind of way out animal groupie and you're really trying to build a case for not harming animals? Intelligence, non intelligence = murder non murder doesn't equate. Is that the way they teach you to think in that place? Or rather is that what they teach you to think? Here's mud in your "I"
nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (06/20/84)
> It is not murder to kill a carrot or an unborn child because neither > is intelligent (what is YOUR definition of intelligence) but because > you don't WANT it to be murder in the case of the child. After all, > animals are intelligent and we don't "murder"them, do we? Or are you > really some kind of way out animal groupie and you're really trying to > build a case for not harming animals? Animals, with the exception perhaps of some monkey, dolphins, and whales, aren't intelligent. Therefore you can't murder them. Perhaps killing a Dolphin is murder; the issue is unclear. > Intelligence, non intelligence = murder non murder doesn't equate. > Is that the way they teach you to think in that place? Or rather is > that what they teach you to think? Murder has nothing to do with the victim being a member of the species Homo Sapient. If we were to discover, for example, that there are intelligent aliens living on Mars, wouldn't it be murder to unfairly and purposely kill a Martian? I say yes! What do these hypothetical Martians and Homo Sapients have in common that makes killing one of either class murder? Intelligence. And I don't know about you -- you have created some of the most indecipherable sentences I have yet seen -- but I can think for myself (I think). -- -Doug Alan mit-eddie!nessus Nessus@MIT-MC "What does 'I' mean"?
owens@gatech.UUCP (Gerald R. Owens) (06/22/84)
> >(By the way, abortion isn't murder for the same reason that eating a > >carrot isn't murder -- neither carrots nor fetuses are intelligent.) > > -Doug Alan Alas, I think the distinction is murky. At what point DO we say that a person is intelligent?? Is a newborn intelligent?? How is intelligence detected? If intelligence is in the newborn now, then what about the day before it's birth? two days? a week? But if it's not in the newborn, then WHEN does it arise? Is it ok to kill a newborn if we kill it before the 'magic' event that makes it intelligent? This is not to say that intelligence is not a good criterion of "personhood", but it fails for lack of an objective standard. I once proposed the detection of brainwaves in the fetus as a good definition, but it was objected to, since brainwaves are detectible as early as 45 days after conception, and so too early for too many people's liking. The use of the term "fetus", by the way, I think needs to be clarified somewhat. It is a description of one stage in the development of the organism, and thus should no more be a term to distinguish "personhood" than "infant","child", "adolescent", "adult". Age is not a good criterion for personhood, for no one denies that children, adolescents and adults are persons, and yet they all differ in age. Thus, the *mere* age of the fetus cannot be used to determine personhood (although it can be validly used as a marker for some *other* aspect(s) that does (do) determine personhood (i.e. At xx weeks, such and such is true, so it is not a person.)), for if it doesn't make a difference between an infant and an adult, then why should it suddenly make a difference between fetus and infant??. Gerald Owens Owens@Gatech p.s. I'm quite busy, so I won't be able to reply as quick as I would like.