wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (08/28/84)
Ok, here's my feelings on the subject of abortion since all I have read lately is 'Angels on the head of pins' arguments. I oppose and reject the use of abortion as a method of birth control. This is one aspect of the pro-choice group that gets me boiling. Most of the people who use abortion as a birth control method fall into the category of having enough brains and money to not have to use it in the first place. Go down and stand in front of your local abortion mill and watch who goes in. Middle class airheads who were too damn lazy to use contraceptive devices or methods. These are people who can damn well afford to support a child but are so damn selfish and self-centered that they would rather opt for killing and murder. I have even heard one such fuddle head brag at a cocktail party that she had already had four, that's FOUR, abortions. She arrived at the party in a Mercedes. In my opinion, it's people like that who should have their brains aborted. While I am at it, I don't know if any of you saw the articles, but in our area, it was found that there is a gentleman who was contracted to get rid of the aborted fetus' from one of the abortion mills. He got rid of them alright. He put the body parts into mason jars and left them for the regular garbage pickup. One of the garbagemen noticed tiny hands and feet packed into a jar that fell out of a box. He opened the box. It was full of jars containing both whole and torn apart fetus remains. Nice huh? Is this how it should be? The man broke no laws, but is morality served by this action? Wake up folks. Go down to your local abortion mill and take a look. It ain't as neat and septic as you might think. Is this acceptable as a birth control method? Not in my book it isn't. I can accept extenuating circumstances, but I cannot accept the selfish attitudes expressed by some pro-choice people concerning using abortion as a birth control method. Don't give me that old saw about finishing school or few years to ourselves bunk. Three hundred dollars will buy a hell of a lot of cheap birth control so you can have both. Using abortion as a birth control method by those who seem well able to afford other means is criminal and just plain stupid. Abortion has not reduced the birth rate among the poor, but it sure as hell has done a job on the rate for the well off. T. C. Wheeler
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (08/29/84)
T.C. Wheeler's observation is well founded, I think. My wife
has a friend who used to work as a receptionist at a local
abortion clinic. One of the reasons she couldn't take the
job any more and left was that she got tired of seeing the same
people come in time after time. I think that three or four
abortions might be the average for women in the class that
T.C. is talking about. There are four abortion clinics here
in Columbus. Three of them are located near, and serve, the
higher income neighborhoods.
--
Paul Dubuc {cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbscc!pmd
The true light that enlightens every one was coming
into the world... (John 1:9)kjm@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ken Montgomery) (08/31/84)
> These > are people who can damn well afford to support a child but are > so damn selfish and self-centered that they would rather opt for > killing and murder. > ... > Three hundred dollars will buy a hell of a > lot of cheap birth control so you can have both. Using abortion > as a birth control method by those who seem well able to afford > other means is criminal and just plain stupid. OK, so what do you think people should do who use preventionary birth control methods which fail on them? (Yes, Otis, sometimes even all of of two or three methods will fail simultaneously!) Some of these people already have several kids. There is not necessarily "room for one more." Who in the h**l are you to allocate other people's resources for them anyway? (Sounds sort of like a flaming liberal to me! :-)) How do you get off telling people to just raise the kid anyway?! > Abortion has > not reduced the birth rate among the poor, but it sure as hell > has done a job on the rate for the well off. > T. C. Wheeler So what?! If you want to pay for abortions for poor women, you will not be stopped. (At least not by me!) -- Continuing to take anti-choice arguments with a large grain of ":-)", I remain the "Shredder-of-hapless-smurfs" [the CARTOON smurfs, Mr. Arndt!] (Ken Montgomery) ...!{ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!kjm [Usenet, when working] kjm@ut-ngp.ARPA [for Arpanauts only]
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (09/09/84)
I would like to see some real statistics on this issue of "abortion being
used as a birth control method" because I personally do know a few women
who have had abortions, and for some interesting reason, they are not at
all like the ones described by TCWheeler and Paul Dubuc. All of them have
had ONE abortion which was caused as a result of contraceptive failure and
most of them did not feel very confortable about the fact that they had
an abortion, but were happy that they made the decision to have one.
Some of them had a very hard time deciding whether or not to have an abortion,
some of them had a more easy time, which seemed to me to have been related
somehow to the age of the fetus when the pregnancy was noticed.
One of the women (my cousin as a matter of fact) felt so bad about her
abortion that when her IUD failed a second time she decided to keep the child
rather than abort it, even though she was not really ready emotionally
to do so (after just finishing raising her two children singlehandedly - she is
a widow - she thought that she could finally start relaxing a bit at the age of
45, but instead she had to start all over again).
What does this prove? nothing much except that anybody can provide
anecdotal evidence to support any claim (my story is true btw).
I have only heard of one real study on the ethical beliefs of women who had
abortions, that done by Carol Gilligan in "In a different voice", and her
findings seem to coincide more with my observations than with TCWheeler's or
Paul Dubuc's. So please people, before you start pulling out your old
cliches about women in fur coats and mercedes having their abortions
before going to have tea with their friends, could you please make sure you
have a way to substantiate your claims. Otherwise, you are resorting to
cheap slurs to insure that other people agree with you.
Also if you are really interested in finding out how women feel about having
abortions but are not willing to wade through tons of research (which I
doubt very much exists anyway), why don't you simply ask someone who has had
one? are you so much afraid to find out that women who have abortions are
people too, with feelings like everybody else, or do you not want to hear that
having an abortion is not a barrel of laughs?
Sophie Quigley
...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigleypmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (09/13/84)
Sophie,
Personal observations aren't enough for you? Only statistics constitute
factual evidence? If you read my article again you might see that I made
no attempt to describe the typical woman who gets an abortion. I mentioned
that three out of four clinics in this city serve the upper-middle and upper
class. You don't think I'm telling the truth; you want a statistic. I also
mentioned that a friend of my wife's (actually two) used to work in one of
those abortion clinics. Their personal observation of a number of people
coming in time after time means nothing? Where should we get our statistics,
Sophie? From the clinics?
I am pretty well aware of what a woman goes through in getting an abortion.
I know it isn't trivial or "a barrel of laughs". Not by any means. I wish
more people knew the way women are treated in some of these clinics. For
example, general anesthesia is not normally done (only local) because it adds
as much as $150 to the price of the abortion. Many women are awake for
the experience (Mr. Wheeler's example probably wasn't if she could brag about
it). For some it is so traumatic that they can't stand the sound of a
vacuum cleaner after that (Sorry, I don't have a statistic). Stories of
some of the demeaning an impersonal treatment some of the women get really
sadden me. The "counselling" they get can seldom be called supportive.
The only abortion I have seen (on film) was done on a woman under general
anesthesia and she still screamed when the suction curette was applied.
No, Sophie, I have no delusions about abortion being a fun experience.
Abortion *is* touted as a form of birth control, Sophie--for the poor.
(In this country some would like our tax money to help foot the bill.)
Also in third world countries. If you would like a reference look
up the article "Apostle of Abortion" in Science 82, March 1982, page 70.
I posted some excerpts in net.religion a while back.
--
Paul Dubuc {cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbscc!pmd
The true light that enlightens every one was coming
into the world... (John 1:9)