twiss@stolaf.UUCP (Thomas S. Twiss) (12/04/84)
> Thanks, liz, for confirming the existence of that >videotape that I had heard only rumors about. It was about >time somebody used modern technology to lay to rest some of the >preconceived notions of what goes on in the womb that early. As we have been discussing, this narrative was anything but objective. It didn't destroy any preconceived notions, it merely perpetuated a very subjectively defined set of them. >I hope soon that somebody will couple the sound picture with an >encephalogram (sp?) of the unborn child's brainwaves to decisively >lay to rest the question of fetal pain (although if a fetus tries to >scream in amniotic fluid and isn't heard, and someone then asserts >that the fetus doesn't feel pain, then I guess we know where they stand >on the old question of the tree falling in the forest with nobody to >hear it.) How can you be sure that the encephalogram won't show conclusively that the fetus is NOT feeling pain. You have a preconceived notion of fetal pain and you expect science to confirm it. That's ridiculous. > However, what facinates me are the mental and verbal gyrations >of the pro-choice netters. If it wasn't so tragic, I would have requested >that the postings be moved to net.jokes. The complaint about the >sensationalism of the posting (and indirectly, of the videotape that >it was a report of), was conveniently absent during the vietnam years, >when the faithful media brought the war to the 6 o'clock news. My suspicion >is that they know what would happen if actual abortions were given equal >time with dead and dying GIs. Unfortunately I am too young to remember clearly the coverage of Vietnam (uh oh, here come the flames saying that I'm too young to comment responsibly! Wait, let me get my asbestos on!!). But I fail to see the comparison. Unless the news clips were equally sensationalistic, then there is absolutely no comparison. If they really were unnecessarily sensationalistic, then you have admitted your own guilt by saying that the abortion clip was as bad as the Vietnam coverage. It doesn't justify the abortion clip, it merely shows that it was indeed sensationalistic. Either way, your comparison is invalid. > We should, of course, consider ALL the consequences of showing this >tape. Recent discussions about a certain famine in Ethiopia, and how >the children should be "taken care of", should alert us to the fact >that the more successfully we present our case, the more we force SOME >of our opponents to adhere more logically to their own arguments. You said it, I didn't! If you want to accuse your opponents of becoming more logical each time you present you case, then go right ahead! I proudly plead guilty!!! >Especially >when they haven't come up with a blockbuster of an argument like this >videotape (Otherwise, they would have used it a long time ago). Of course we haven't come up with an argument like yours and that's exactly the point - I wouldn't want us to. I would rather discuss the issue in an intelligent and rational manner. >Remember, >Shaeffer argued that a bad attitude toward the fetus, the weakest of humans, >will develop into a bad attitude toward the weak. > >Gerald Owens >...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!owens For once, I agree. This is a very important issue and one that we must be very conscious of. But let's be realistic. Can you really imagine the US legislating a policy for the destruction of te weak? We aren't that backwards in this country! -- Tom Twiss @ St. Olaf College {decvax,ihnp4}!stolaf!twiss "If the Paradox and the Reason come together in a mutual understanding of their unlikeliness their encounter will be happy..." -Soren Kierkegaard
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (12/08/84)
> >Especially > >when they haven't come up with a blockbuster of an argument like this > >videotape (Otherwise, they would have used it a long time ago). > > Of course we haven't come up with an argument like yours and > that's exactly the point - I wouldn't want us to. I would rather > discuss the issue in an intelligent and rational manner. > > >Gerald Owens > >...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!owens > > Tom Twiss @ St. Olaf College Well, there are pro-choice movies that exist showing the suffering of women who are recovering from botched-up illegal abortions. "abortion stories, north and south" a movie which looks at abortion around the world, is one such movie. It is produced by the national film board of Canada. The equivalent pro-choice videotape to yours could consist in showing women screaming (not silently this time!) as they are tortured by back-street abortionists (I can be sensationalistic too), but I doubt that anybody would have the heart to actually film such suffering instead of going to the rescue of the victim. Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley
z@rocksvax.UUCP (12/10/84)
I would imagine a pro-abortion movie would not show botched abortions
since even a 'pro' can blow one now and then. If the abortions were illegal
it was more a problem of enforcing the laws that was the problem. Thus the
movie Sophie mentioned could be interpreted the wrong way.
A real pro-abortion movie should show the results of NOT having
an abortion, i.e. having a child. I can picture the movie now:
Cold winter night.
Woman in labor drives car onto Sophie's farm. She can't be put up in the
house since the house is filled with guests on Christmas Eve. Sophie does
offer her the barn.
In the barn the child is born slightly after midnight. The only thing
which keeps the child warm is the breath of the animals.
Later three of society's 'untouchables' visit to complete the insult. The
retard from down the street brings a stupid toy. The welfare case from
around the block brings a cheap meal. The hitchhiker brings his dirty towel.
Grody to the max!
Of course it will then take a little bit of creative talent to show the
disruption to society that the child will bring and his suffering. But
that might be better told as another story.
:-}
--
Hey, Santa, pass the bottle.
//Z\\
James M. Ziobro
Ziobro.Henr@Xerox.ARPA
{rochester,amd,sunybcs,allegra}!rocksvax!z