[net.abortion] Reply to Brad Andrews

ark@rabbit.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (10/24/84)

Brad Andrews says the following:

> They have already extended the parents "rights" to after
> birth, look at the baby doe case earlier this year where
> the starve a child.  Continueing down this path would
> lead to killing babies for not being the right sex, as they
> do in China, or for other "slight" reasons.

He is referring to the "Baby Jane Doe case."  Last year, a
baby was born with a syndrome called spina bifida, whose
symptoms included, among other things, a large hole
in her lower back that left her spinal cord exposed.
The decision involved was whether or not to perform
surgery to close the hole.

Whether or not this surgery were done, the child would be
severely retarded, paralyzed from the waist down, and
probably unable ever to care for herself.  Surgery would
probably extend her life, but she would still not live
a normal span.

What her parents decided was not to use any extraordinary
means to prolong her life and let nature take its course.
They continued to feed her and provide her with routine
medical care.

I saw an article a few weeks ago in the New York Times
about the effects of this particular course of treatment:
the hole in her back closed up without the surgery,
and her parents were able to take her home.  She recently
passed her first birthday, and, as far as I know, is
still alive.

andrews@uiucdcsb.UUCP (10/26/84)

Where do you get that information?  In the Baby Doe case they
starved the baby, they did not just let nature take its course.
Also, even if the parents did not want to take the "extra actions",
there were others who would have.  A married couple that are friends
with my dad have a son with Down's Syndrome, and so I know that
they can grow up to be loved children, regardless of the handicap.

				Brad Andrews

wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (10/29/84)

Hold it Gang.  There are several Baby Does.  I think we are
getting them a little mixed up.  There is one, still alive,
on Long Island, NY.  Some of us are talking about that one.
This is the one that has stirred up the Government.  There was
another one who was allowed to die by starvation.  There are
several more around the country also.  We mostly hear
about the one in our region.  Let's not go for each others
throats on this.  We all seem to be talking about different
Baby Does.
T. C. Wheeler

andrews@uiucdcsb.UUCP (10/31/84)

The one I was talking about was, I believe in Indiana earlier
this year(during the summer I think).

				Brad Andrews

ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (01/15/85)

> How is my attitude any diferent than yours?  Will you ever be convinced that
> abortion is murder?  If not, shouldn't you leave?  Or is this only a forum
> for converting people who foolishly believe that abortion is wrong to change
> their ways and allow it? (note the sarcasm) Why should you have any more right
> to discuss here than I?

Answers: (1) I don't know; I can't read your mind, but I suspect your
attitude is different in many ways.  (2) Maybe.  (3) This doesn't need
an answer.  (4) I don't.  But when you say "This is what I believe,
I have no choice about it, and I am never going to change, and I
believe it because it's right, so there!"  my response is: "Well
whoopee for you.  You will probably not convince me of ANYTHING without
reason.


> Going on to the question of when life begins.  If it does not begin at
> conception, then when does it begin?  At birth?  When a child is 5 years old?
> When he/she can fully care for himself/herself?  What does life consist of?
> This is the foundational question, and the reason why a loose belief in
> regards to human life before physical birth leads to infant killing and
> euthenasia(sp?).

Surely you're not going to tell me that a sperm cell isn't alive!

Actually, you're ignoring the most important question.  You know,
the one I asked a few weeks ago that no one has yet answered for
me convincingly:  why is killing a human different from killing
an animal?  I am, of course, asking somewhat rhetorically.  It
seems to me that until this question is answered completely, any
argument about whether a fetus, or a baby for that matter, is alive
is completely specious.

andrews@uiucdcsb.UUCP (01/19/85)

The reason that killing an animal is not wrong(in my opinion) while killing
a human is, was answered a few notes back, rather well.  The basic question
though is, who is man and is he different than a dog(for example)?
He most certainly is, and I am not limiting this to one particular group of men
either, they are all equally valuable.  This is the same reason why I would
have opposed slavery had it been around, because I believe, as the Constitution
says, that each man has been bestowed with certain unalienable rights.
If you do not believe that man is that much above animals, then this reasoning
will not be true for you.

				Brad