[net.abortion] morality and a few other things......

umina@darts.DEC (01/18/85)

        I  read  with  some concern the discussion of the  definition  of 

        humanity and morality that Brad and Andrew are having.
 
        Neither of you,  in your infinite wisdom is capable at this  time 

        of defining morality or humanity.   No matter what definition you 

        propose,  it  can be picked apart or misinterpeted a piece  at  a 

        time  until  it  no longer resembles what you  thought  you  were 

        origionally defining.
 
        Fear not, for this problem has plagued mankind for centuries, and 

        was pursued with fervor by every major civilization on the earth.  

        Perhaps  even the great scholars of Rome had no place in defining 

        morality,  for they also failed.  It wasn't until the Jews, and a 

        later  Jewish Sect,  the Christians,  appeared that these  issues 

        acheived any sort of stability within humanity.
 
        They  achieved this stability because they were based  on  faith.  

        Faith in God.  Faith in prophets.  Faith in revelation.  Faith in 

        scriptures.
 
        The  Judeo-Christian  definition of morality and ethics  now  has 

        come to be the basis for the advancement of mankind.   Can it  be 

        wrong ?   You tell me.   Is it hard to abide by ?  Sometimes.  Is 

        it  often misinterpeted to achieve the ends of spcecial interests 

        ? Yes.
 
        The  central question to the abortion issue is not wether or  not 

        there are too many people on the earth and its overcrowded  (That 

        premise  was put forth centuries ago guys and was proven just  as 

        false  then as it is now.   Technology has continually 'appeared' 

        to solve the problems additional population has created.)
 
        Neither  is the central question when life begins.   If  you  are 

        concerned  when life begins you obviously are concerned wether or 

        not  you are killing a 'human',  but the point of when that  life 

        could achieve some secular status will change with any definition 

        you are possible of creating as our understanding of life  itself 

        increases.
 
        Neither  is the central question what species is 'human'.   To be 

        sure all species have rights.  All of the creatures on Earth seem 

        to  have some purpose.   It is the purpose of that  species  that 

        determines what rights it has.
 
        Neither  is  the central question wether or not it  is  right  to 

        murder.  One can (and we do) spend a lot of time defining when it 

        is  permissable  to kill - not only humans but other  species  as 

        well.
 
        The  real premise you must struggle with is wether there is or is 

        not a God,  wether or not there is or was a Christ.  If there is, 

        you  are in deep trouble trying to rationalize the killing  of  a 

        human fetus by either attempting to define humanity, or the point 

        at  which life begins.   If there is not,  then your attempts  to 

        form a basis for the 'correct' definition of permissable abortion 

        are  in  vain  as  they  will change  with  societies  needs  and 

        aspirations anyway.
 
        If you can believe that there has here on Earth somehow  occurred 

        a  significant abberration in entropy through which you and  your 

        colleagues  have  'evolved'  I salute you.   You are  then  quite 

        obviously far ahead of me in evolution and understanding.
 
        No one can argue that the glory of God is intelligence.  To bring 

        to  pass  the immortality of man is no  small  achievement.   One 

        thing is for sure, God's views, instructions, percepts and wisdom 

        would not change except as we ourselves change.   A 'higher' form 

        of behavior allows an even higher law to be  exemplified.  (Hence 

        the  New  vs the Old Test.) I'd like to move on to the next  step 

        for us all myself.
 
        Do  not  wonder how we can handle the added  population  here  on 

        Earth.  There will be a way.  The technology exists today to give 

        every inhabitant the same quality of life you enjoy.   The oceans 

        are  still  full of water,  fusion technology threatens  to  make 

        energy almost free,  and space is to us what the new world was to 

        Columbus.
 
        What  stands  in the way is only our own ability to accept  these 

        things for what they are,  and to rid ourselves of that  stubborn 

        human  traight of selfishness.   If you don't believe that take a 

        look around you for a minute.
 
        Women  are  concerned  about  having  children  because  of   the 

        imposition  that raising them has on their ability to enjoy life.  

        Many men don't want the financial responsiblity it entails,  even 

        though they could easily afford it.  Some of you don't think that 

        you have enough whatever and more competitors will result in your 

        getting even less.
 
        What  scares me is that the very people who are  not  procreating 

        are  wasting  their  inheritance.   Their  inheritance  is  their 

        genetic gift of intelligence.  They squander it on good times and 

        self  indulgence.   They  are intoxicated in the lives  that  the 

        misuse  of these technological gifts can create.   Meanwhile time 

        goes by.
 
        The next generation,  deprived of the most intelligent among  us, 

        will suffer.  There will not be enough among us to effect or deal 

        with  the problems that will face humanity,  and the consequences 

        will be grave.   Emotion will lead the masses and the result will 

        be  disaster.
 
        Let's  face  it  guys history tells us  that  without  faith  and 

        attention to the teachings of God every civilization is doomed to 

        destruction.   It's a matter of record.   Conversely, every thing 

        that  the  human  race  could throw at certain  groups  has  been 

        successfully withstood for centuries.   Now these things may  not 

        effect your lifetime and you may not care.   If you find out that 

        upon  your death you did not die at all though you might want  to 

        be  in a better position than having supported the destruction of 

        innocent human life.

ssp@sun.uucp (Stephen Page) (01/19/85)

What, Umina haveta wade through twice as many screens because u double-
spaced, wether (sic) a wants ta or not?

	Sparing you netlanders the trouble, umina introduces a lot of stuff
that only has validity within a religious (specifically Judeo-Christian)
context.  Even then it's pretty weird.
	It (umina) thinks this debate can be stopped in its tracks because
it believes in a God who has revealed the answers to this debate. (and who 
incidentally will punish dissenters) 
	Listen umina, (partly) because I don't believe in a God, I can't 
be sure I know the answers.  But your sureness *DOESN'T* make you right!  
It doesn't even make your ideas more right than mine.  The abortion clinic 
bombers, Ayatollah Khomeini, some people on both sides of this debate, etc. 
*KNOW* they are right.  Big deal.
	See all the articles in this news group that manage to debate morals,
ethics and law separately from all this religious crap.  Religion guides many
people's morals, which is fine, but it doesn't prove anything.

	I managed to reduce 500 lines of point-by-point refutation, argument,
and name-calling to this.  Do I get a prize?

			not my opinions, not my employer's opinions