bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) (03/18/85)
I saw another incident of a picket of an abortion clinic and was very
interested. There was a press conference with the director of the clinic
(as usual, no serious conversation with the picketers) and this very
obnoxious woman speaking some of the same self-satisfied rhetoric that we
have all heard more than enough of here about people trying to force their
beliefs on others.
However, she said one thing that first shocked and then
pleased me: She mentioned that there was some anonymous "benefactor" who
was promising to fund an abortion for a poor woman every time that there was
a picketing of an abortion clinic. Now, what a hideous thing to hear,
especially that late at night! BUT... I wasn't the ONLY person who saw
that witch spewing forth her hellish pronouncements! The whole television
audience of that newscast saw it! Many people who sort of thought they could
just close their eyes and it would go away, rather like we non-Catholics did
before Roe vs. Wade. Now they can see the real character of the ideologues
who are behind the pro-abortion movement... the same ones who said a few years
ago that they would be continuing to exploit the doubt about whether a fetus
was a person until the general public got used to the idea(quote furnished
upon request). We can see now that their leader and progenitor has once again
made a fatal error in tactics, since he has now been hounded for many years
by ever-increasing legions of believers who are getting wise to his schemes.
Don't you people see that he is LOSING? Why should you? He doesn't.carnes@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (03/20/85)
In article <> bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) writes: > BUT... I wasn't the ONLY person who saw >that witch spewing forth her hellish pronouncements! The whole television >audience of that newscast saw it! Many people who sort of thought they could >just close their eyes and it would go away, rather like we non-Catholics did >before Roe vs. Wade. Now they can see the real character of the ideologues >who are behind the pro-abortion movement... the same ones who said a few years >ago that they would be continuing to exploit the doubt about whether a fetus >was a person until the general public got used to the idea(quote furnished >upon request). We can see now that their leader and progenitor has once again >made a fatal error in tactics, since he has now been hounded for many years >by ever-increasing legions of believers who are getting wise to his schemes. > > Don't you people see that he is LOSING? Why should you? He doesn't. The Devil's greatest triumph is to persuade people to do his work for him in the belief that they are serving God. This has obviously happened many times in the past and continues in the present -- witch-hunts, holy wars, the religious fanaticism in Iran, and so on. The people who persecuted "witches" and burned heretics were just as convinced as Brian is that they were on God's side and doing his holy work. The Devil is, after all, extremely clever. He knows that if he announced himself, "Hello, I'm the Devil," people would just tell him to get lost. He has learned to wear religious vestments, sing hymns, and quote the Bible. Millions now serve him in the conviction that they are serving God (they may serve God in part, but they are unaware that they serve the Devil as well). The Devil has them totally outsmarted. I wonder why people like Brian are so certain they are doing God's work? They seem to think that anything with a cross on it, anything that *claims* to be on God's side, is thereby proved to be on God's side. Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes
bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) (03/24/85)
>I wonder why people like Brian are so certain they are doing God's >work? They seem to think that anything with a cross on it, anything >that *claims* to be on God's side, is thereby proved to be on God's >side. > >Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes I'm not at all sure how to answer this ludicrous parroting. There is no reference at all in your reply to anything said in your inclusion of my text. To say that you missed the point, Richard, is probably redundant. I am not deluded. I am simply trying to let the true story of what's going on be known to those people who still have something left of their moral senses. I merely said that I was glad to see that the true nature of these people is being shown before the whole nation had been sucked under by their lying facade, and totally inured to the hideous nature of the ungodly forces directing this activity. Your knee-jerk reaction tells me something about you too, Richard. It tells me that you don't care to think. Please do. Please stop being deceived by your conditioning in this hedonistic culture.
carnes@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (03/25/85)
In article <> bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) writes: > I am not deluded. I am simply trying to >let the true story of what's going on be known to those people who >still have something left of their moral senses. I merely said that >I was glad to see that the true nature of these people is being shown >before the whole nation had been sucked under by their lying facade, >and totally inured to the hideous nature of the ungodly forces directing >this activity. What I asked, and what Brian has so far not answered, is how he knows the other side is ungodly and evil, and that those who do not recognize this are lacking in moral sense. This view of "we're the good guys on God's side, you're agents of evil" is EXACTLY the state of mind that has led to the many atrocities of persecution in history, by Christians as well as others. It is known as the paranoid view of the world. It says that the trouble is caused by "them," the bad guys, the unbelievers and godless people. This often leads to the idea that the way to get rid of the trouble is to get rid of "them." I note that Brian recently quoted God, through Solomon, to the effect that it's OK to punish children by beating them; it's good for them. If God actually said this, He is the Devil. An important factor in the rise of Nazism was the prevalence of authoritative and cruel methods of child-rearing which were justified, and still are, by reference to the Bible. But according to Brian and millions of others, if the Bible says it, it's so, and directly from God. We have not learned much from the phenomenon of Nazism if we don't take very seriously the paranoid groups in our midst, such as those Fundamentalists who divide the world into good guys and bad guys. Hitler for once was right when he said, "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." > Please stop being >deceived by your conditioning in this hedonistic culture. I live in the United States, which has a culture strongly influenced by Puritanism and the so-called Protestant ethic. It is anything but a hedonistic society. Richard Carnes
bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) (03/26/85)
>What I asked, and what Brian has so far not answered, is how he knows >the other side is ungodly and evil, and that those who do not >recognize this are lacking in moral sense. I did answer, and answer again for you, the question of how I know. They are proving it. I need not say a word. >This view of "we're the good guys on God's side, you're agents of >evil" is EXACTLY the state of mind that has led to the many >atrocities of persecution in history, by Christians as well as >others. It is known as the paranoid view of the world. It says that >the trouble is caused by "them," the bad guys, the unbelievers and >godless people. This often leads to the idea that the way to get rid >of the trouble is to get rid of "them." I THOUGHT you read my article - you included part of it. But you are playing a pre-recorded tape of some stereotyped opinion which I have not expressed. I am simply saying, LOOK at the FACTS. OPEN your EYES. I did NOT say, "get rid of them". I said, LOOK at their character. Hear the ugliness of what they SAY, of what they LIVE. Then judge for yourself. >I note that Brian recently quoted God, through Solomon, to the effect >that it's OK to punish children by beating them; it's good for them. >If God actually said this, He is the Devil. And who are YOU? You are greater than God. You understand everything. > An important factor in >the rise of Nazism was the prevalence of authoritative and cruel >methods of child-rearing which were justified, and still are, by >reference to the Bible. But according to Brian and millions of >others, if the Bible says it, it's so, and directly from God. > >We have not learned much from the phenomenon of Nazism if we don't >take very seriously the paranoid groups in our midst, such as those >Fundamentalists who divide the world into good guys and bad guys. >Hitler for once was right when he said, "What good fortune for those >in power that people do not think." It appears that YOU have learned nothing from Nazism, except the Big Lie technique, that says the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. The essence of Nazism was the same old lie that people today are believing in masses - that men are, and of right ought to be, equal to God, and that God should be relegated to his time in the past where he belonged. A new man was developing, the Aryan race, foretold by the Tibetan monks and the likes of Gurdjief and Eckardt. This new man had no need for the old Jewish Christian God. The persecution of Jews was not in the name of Christianity, it was in the name of pulling God from his throne. Anti-Semitism arises from rejection of God, not from radical Christianity. One of the foremost Christian teachers of the time, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, was executed for allegedly plotting to assassinate the Fuehrer. The real Christian church was as fiercely persecuted as the Jews. Nazism happened in part because Christians of the time did not recognize his real purposes and failed to stand against him and his values. >I live in the United States, which has a culture strongly influenced >by Puritanism and the so-called Protestant ethic. It is anything but >a hedonistic society. This period is known right now to friends AND foes of Christianity as the "post-Christian period". The fact is, the Puritan influence you speak of has faded. The very topic we initially discussed is more proof than most need of this. Any society that says, "if it feels good, it not only is all right to do it, but I've got a RIGHT to do it, regardless of whom it hurts, is by my definition(and most anyone's that I know of) hedonistic at its root. Stick to the facts, instead of ape-brained repetitions of some stereotype you saw on TV. Also, read something about Nazism, rather than reinterpreting what you think you remember about history in the light of your new holier-than-thou values.
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dr. Emmanuel Wu) (03/27/85)
> Your knee-jerk reaction tells me something about you too, Richard. It > tells me that you don't care to think. Please do. Please stop being > deceived by your conditioning in this hedonistic culture. > [B. M. Taylor to Richard Carnes] This relates back to the article I just wrote on "convenience". What's wrong with "this hedonistic culture"? (Your perspective.) As long as other human being's rights aren't interfered with, what do you care what other people do with their lives, even if it means their enjoying life (part of the definition of hedonism) while you choose not to? I'd say yours is the kneejerk reaction. -- "When you believe in things that you don't understand, you'll suffer. Superstition ain't the way." Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dr. Emmanuel Wu) (03/27/85)
> >What I asked, and what Brian has so far not answered, is how he knows > >the other side is ungodly and evil, and that those who do not > >recognize this are lacking in moral sense. > > I did answer, and answer again for you, the question > of how I know. They are proving it. I need not say a word. [THOMAS] People who believe that they "need not say a word" generally have nothing to say. Which explains why they don't say it. > I THOUGHT you read my article - you included part of it. But you are > playing a pre-recorded tape of some stereotyped opinion which I have > not expressed. I am simply saying, LOOK at the FACTS. OPEN your EYES. > I did NOT say, "get rid of them". I said, LOOK at their character. > Hear the ugliness of what they SAY, of what they LIVE. Then judge > for yourself. What of the ugliness of abortion clinic bombers? Of those who harrass women entering such clinics by calling them whores and murderers? If you want to judge by perceived ugliness, rather than facts, as you seem to be doing, I'd still say your "side" comes off badly. > It appears that YOU have learned nothing from Nazism, except the > Big Lie technique, that says the bigger the lie, the more people > will believe it. The essence of Nazism was the same old lie that > people today are believing in masses - that men are, and of right > ought to be, equal to God, and that God should be relegated to > his time in the past where he belonged. A new man was developing, > the Aryan race, foretold by the Tibetan monks and the likes of > Gurdjief and Eckardt. This new man had no need for the old Jewish > Christian God. The persecution of Jews was not in the name of > Christianity, it was in the name of pulling God from his throne. > Anti-Semitism arises from rejection of God, not from radical Christianity. > One of the foremost Christian teachers of the time, Dietrich > Bonhoeffer, was executed for allegedly plotting to assassinate > the Fuehrer. The real Christian church was as fiercely persecuted > as the Jews. Nazism happened in part because Christians of the time > did not recognize his real purposes and failed to stand against him > and his values. For a Christian so vehemently against Nazism, you (and the rest) were awful quiet when it appeared in net.religion... > >I live in the United States, which has a culture strongly influenced > >by Puritanism and the so-called Protestant ethic. It is anything but > >a hedonistic society. > > This period is known right now to friends AND foes of Christianity > as the "post-Christian period". The fact is, the Puritan influence you > speak of has faded. Thank goodness. (Actually, I don't believe this has happened, and what is needed is not the replacement of one with the other, but a balance between the two as determined by individuals.) > Any society that says, "if it feels good, it not only is all right to > do it, but I've got a RIGHT to do it, regardless of whom it hurts, is by > my definition(and most anyone's that I know of) hedonistic at its root. That's funny, I haven't seen such a society around these parts (though perhaps certain "Identity Christians" might like to...). Even funnier, it would seem that "regardless of whom it hurts" means little to those who would impose their views on others. > Stick to the facts, instead of ape-brained repetitions of some stereotype > you saw on TV. You'd be well advised to take your own advice. -- Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts. Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr