ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (03/31/85)
T. C. Wheeler says: > Now, as I have often said before, and I will say > again, ABORTION FOR THE PURPOSES OF BIRTH CONTROL > IS MURDER. Either abortion is murder or it is not. If it is, the purpose is irrelevant.
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (04/01/85)
> T. C. Wheeler says: > > > Now, as I have often said before, and I will say > > again, ABORTION FOR THE PURPOSES OF BIRTH CONTROL > > IS MURDER. > > Either abortion is murder or it is not. If it is, > the purpose is irrelevant. Au contraire, ascertaining the purpose is essential to determining whether an act resulting in the death of a human being is murder. If I shoot someone (for example), it could be an accident, self defense, or one of several degrees of murder; the determination is based on the court's assessment of my purpose. Murder, as I understand the term, means to wrongfully and knowingly cause a human being's life to end. Thus, abortion is usually NOT murder, because (presumably) the woman getting the abortion and the person performing it do not believe that they are killing a human being. I.e., I think that abortion in general is a wrongful taking of life, but not a knowing taking of life. (As an aside, occassionally someone claims that pro-lifers want to throw everyone who has obtained or performed an abortion into jail; it should now be clear that it is possible to be opposed to something without wanting to throw its proponents into jail.) Gary Samuelson ittvax!bunker!garys
crazyc@ihuxk.UUCP (p. cioni) (04/09/85)
> > T. C. Wheeler says: > > > > > Now, as I have often said before, and I will say > > > again, ABORTION FOR THE PURPOSES OF BIRTH CONTROL > > > IS MURDER. > > > > Either abortion is murder or it is not. If it is, > > the purpose is irrelevant. > > Au contraire, ascertaining the purpose is essential to > determining whether an act resulting in the death of > a human being is murder. If I shoot someone (for example), > it could be an accident, self defense, or one of several > degrees of murder; the determination is based on the > court's assessment of my purpose. > > Murder, as I understand the term, means to wrongfully > and knowingly cause a human being's life to end. Thus, > abortion is usually NOT murder, because (presumably) > the woman getting the abortion and the person performing > it do not believe that they are killing a human being. > I.e., I think that abortion in general is a wrongful > taking of life, but not a knowing taking of life. > > (As an aside, occassionally someone claims that pro-lifers > want to throw everyone who has obtained or performed an > abortion into jail; it should now be clear that it is > possible to be opposed to something without wanting to throw > its proponents into jail.) > > Gary Samuelson > ittvax!bunker!garys *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Mr. Samuelson, You're right about murder being knowingly taking a life. If you believe that a fetus is not a human before a certain time, then my comments are not going to phase you. My understanding of human life is that a human becomes a human upon conception, therefore, a 2 week fetus is considered a human being and having an abortion constitutes murder since this fetus is a human. The woman having the abortion has been told she is pregnant and is expecting a BABY, not an it, which is what people seem to assume, (ie: a fetus is not a human being) and opts to have an abortion is knowingly killing a human being. Please send flames and comments to me via electronic mail to this login ihuxk!crazyc Thank-you, P. Cioni
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (04/11/85)
T. C. Wheeler said that abortion is murder, regardless of its purpose. I said that determining purpose is essential in determining if a given act is murder. P. Cioni apparently takes me to mean that abortion is OK; this is a misunderstanding. (By the way, P. Cioni's comments, several hundred characters, were all on one line. Someone has broken software somewhere.) > Mr. Samuelson, you're right about murder being knowingly > taking a life. Not exactly; I said that murder is knowingly and wrongfully taking a human life. Self defense is not murder, though it may be done knowingly. Accidentally causing someone's death is not murder, though you may be held responsible; in this case, the death is wrongful but was not knowingly caused. > If you believe that a fetus is not a human > before a certain time, then my comments are not going to > phase you. Good, I wouldn't want to be 'phased'. (Perhaps you meant 'fazed'?) Actually, your comments do not faze me, but for a completely different reason: you misunderstood me. I *do* believe that a fetus is a human being (apparently you are new to the net). I also admit that there are those who believe otherwise. Someone who *unknowingly* kills a human being is not guilty of murder, but, possibly, of something else. This doesn't mean I think abortion is right, only that it isn't necessarily "murder" -- a word I think should be used more precisely (along with a lot more terms). > My understanding of human life is that a human > becomes a human upon conception, therefore, a 2 week fetus > is considered a human being and having an abortion constitutes > murder since this fetus is a human. If someone who shared your understanding had an abortion, then her action would indeed be murder (or self-defense, etc.). If someone who does not share your understanding has an abortion, then it is not "murder," since she does *not* know she is killing a human being. Now, I happen to think that she is incorrect in her understanding and that her action is wrong, but it doesn't fit the *legal* definition of murder. > The woman having the > abortion has been told she is pregnant and is expecting a > BABY, not an it, which is what people seem to assume, (ie: > a fetus is not a human being) and opts to have an abortion > is knowingly killing a human being. How can someone be knowingly killing a human being, when that same person claims that it is not a human being? Are you calling all those who say that the fetus is not a human being liars? I think they're wrong, but I don't think they're liars (that is another word used much too loosely on the net). Those who think the fetus is a human being can attempt to convince those who think otherwise that they're wrong, and vice versa. And those who think that abortion is wrong should provide alternatives -- and many do just that. Of course, there are those who agree that the fetus is a human being, or say that the question is irrelevant, and maintain that they nevertheless have the right to kill the fetus if they so desire. This attitude I have a big problem with. > Please send flames and comments to me via electronic mail > to this login ihuxk!crazyc > Thank-you, > P. Cioni Gary Samuelson ittvax!bunker!garys