[net.abortion] can you say "over-population"?

Keebler@cmu-cs-edu1.ARPA (06/10/85)

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> From: mn@dscvax2.UUCP (Matt Noah)
> 
> > From: hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa (Keebler)
> > 
> > "We  now have a good reason for abortions.  (Pro-abortion, as opposed to
> > pro- choice.)  Gary Samuelson has just provided us with ample figures to
> > show us that abortions aren't wasted away.  Ain't that nice?  Let's  say
> > we have 1.5 million abortions.  Not only is that 1.5 million less mouths
> > to  feed,  bods  to  cloth,  education  to  provide, etc. ... that's 1.5
> > million abortions free to used in some practical manner.  So what do you
> > say, Gar?  How about  some  PROABORTION  posters  so  we  can  get  this
> > economic potential rollin', huh?"
> 
> Please  don't  be  flippant  about  human  life.    And  don't feel feel
> personally responsible for all those lives.  You don't have to feed  and
> clothe  all those people.  There are plenty of pro-lifers who are set up
> to help in that regard.  The government, no doubt, will help  as  it  is
> now.

Did you know that the government collects taxes?  Specifically, it collects
a lot of my paycheck.  Saying that the government will help means that *I*
will help, whether I like it or not.  So please don't patronize me with your
attitude.  I am NOT that stupid.

Incidentally, you seem to want to portray me as a heartless person, not
wanting to help the poor, etc.  Please understand that I simply do not
want more of them to help.  Sooner or later, your pro-life organizations
are going to start demanding more and more help from the government.  I
DON'T like to support the mouths that YOU forced others to create!

Human beings or not, if you have so much compassion and heart, help the
poor and needy that are ALREADY born!  Don't force people to have more
if they don't want them!

> Just  stay  out  of  the  way  of us who want to help.  I cannot
> understand the upbringing of someone who argues about human life from  a
> mainly economic point of view.

I cannot comprehend the upbringing of someone who cares only about ideal
human life principles without any regard for the practical principles.

> > This  is  why  I  would side with the pro-choice people.  It makes a lot
> > more sense to allow someone to apply her own judgements to her own body.
> 
> Why do you always neglect to mention the  body  of  the  person  she  is
> carrying?    That  little  body depends on people taking care of it well
> beyond birth.

Because that body happens to be semi-human.  Hence it has semi-rights.  If
you think everyone should have equal rights, irregardless of age/development,
I suggest that you push for legislation to draft senior citizens as well as
2-year-olds.  While you're at it, add a few bills to eliminate the drinking
age laws.  And of course, get rid of things like the movie rating system.
If you think this is ridiculous, you're right!  But if you go for idealism ...

> > Anyway, rather than posting things that will potentially  infuriate  and
> > excite people's emotions, how about a little more rational arguments.  I
> > have  seen a lot of chants of "pro-dead-babies, pro-death, pro-abortion,
> > pro-communist,  pro-child-molesting,  etc..."  applied   to   pro-choice
> > people.    Yes,  no  one  will  stop  you  from speaking such slanderous
> > falsehoods, as you have the right to say it.  However, I and many others
> > will continue to point out  the  fallacies  of  these  purely  emotional
> > statements.
> 
> Slanderous Falsehoods?  I think not.  Some of those terms apply to  some
> of  the  people.

You are just whistlin' dixie.  How about some evidence to support your
statement?

> Don't presume to think so highly of yourself that you
> and many others will "point out the fallacies ...".

Once again, drop the patronizing shit.

> The truth  is  that
> life  is  a  mystery;  we know its vital signs but we cannot give it.

If you have ever opened a high school biology textbook, you would know what
constitutes life.  Life is hardly a mystery.  Biology is not some pseudo-
science like alchemy or astrology.  "It's a mystery" is just a cop-out.

> I
> don't presume to define it but I do voice an opinion as to when  society
> should  protect  it.

You don't have to define it.  It's already defined in the textbook that you
never bothered to read.

> I also believe it is important enough to legislate
> it so that we may stem the tide of death and reverse  an  attitude  that
> human life is not sacred.

"tide of death"?  Listen, Matt, cut the crap with the emotion appealing
language.  Use something objective.  Do you think objectively or what?

Human life is NOT sacred unless you believe in some religion where God
creates life in 7 days or something weird like that.  It happens that
I value my life.  You value yours.  I promise not to take yours if you
don't take mine.  Moreover, I promise not to force you to do things if
you don't force me to do things.  That's fine for a while.  However, a
2-year-old is not going to be able to survive in the world without some
help and decisions from someone more experienced.  Hence, we give some
of his/her rights to his/her guardian(s).  For the sake of simplicity
we have to draw the line somewhere.  That's why there are things like
the drinking age/driving age/drafting age/...  The older you get, the
more rights you get.  A 2-year-old may be able to survive by itself.
A fetus cannot.  It lives on the mother.  Its living rights are in the
hands of its mother.  Therefore, the mother may take away those rights
at any time.

If you want to legislate some law saying that the mother must allow
the physicians to remove the fetus and to attempt to help it survive,
I am even willing to support you.  On the other hand, if you are only
going after forcing the mother to carry the baby to full term, forget
it.
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Keebler { hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa }