mn@dscvax2.UUCP (Matt Noah) (06/03/85)
> Subject: Re: Fingernails, hair clippings and the fetus > >> Equates clipping your nails or getting a haircut with having an abortion. >> Let's see, . . . my hair can't live unless it's attached to me . . . >> > Well, YOU made the comparison, not me. A 2 month old fetus cannot live > unless attached to its mother either, while you're at it. An eight month > old fetus on the other hand, might, but who wants to abort 8 month old > fetuses anyway? > -- > Sophie Quigley > {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie Viability is not the issue here. If it were, then Sophie would be pushing for laws to protect 8 month old pre-born babies. I don't believe she is. By the way, approximately 41 abortions are performed daily in this country AFTER the 20th week! Since approximately 97% of abortions in this country are done for reasons other than rape, incest or to save the life of the mother, about 40 fully-formed human fetuses are being murdered daily. If you don't know what a 20-week-old fetus looks like, look it up. This being is not a blob of tissue; it is easily recognizable as a human being. It can feel and responds to pain. The horrors imposed by a late abortion would sicken the unknowledgeable. Dismemberment and saline solutions are common abortion methods for late abortions. Would even the cruelest among us advocate these methods for the execution of death-row prisoners? Pro- choicers like to talk alot about incest, rape, the plight or poor women, etc. but somehow forget to talk about the people who use abortion to cover up extramarital sex and as birth control. We can't define life based on a perverted notion of convenience and freedom. We have to protect everyone's rights if we are to protect our own. When they persecuted you for being Black, I sat quiet for it did not effect me. When they persecuted you for being religious, I was too busy to help you. When they persecuted you in your old age, I turned away because I couldn't relate. When they persecuted me, I cried for help, but there was no one left to help me. Matt Noah
sophie@mnetor.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (06/12/85)
> > Subject: Re: Fingernails, hair clippings and the fetus > > > >> Equates clipping your nails or getting a haircut with having an abortion. > >> Let's see, . . . my hair can't live unless it's attached to me . . . > >> > > Well, YOU made the comparison, not me. A 2 month old fetus cannot live > > unless attached to its mother either, while you're at it. An eight month > > old fetus on the other hand, might, but who wants to abort 8 month old > > fetuses anyway? > > -- > > Sophie Quigley > > {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie > > Viability is not the issue here. If it were, then Sophie would be pushing > for laws to protect 8 month old pre-born babies. I don't believe she is. Before you speak for me, I suggest you check with me. I am not pushing for laws to protect 8 month old fetuses because I believe that these laws would be extented to cover all fetuses. I would be very satisfied with laws that outlawed third trimester abortions (except for medical reasons) if they were accompanied by laws which guaranteed access to first and second trimester abortions to ANY woman desiring one without any unreasonnable (>1 week) delay between the time she requested it and the abortion. I know that in Canada most late abortions are caused by the fact that there are so many administrative delays involved in the procedure, delays that the mother has no control over. I believe that the earlier the abortion, the better. Apart from the fact that the procedure is safer the earlier it is performed, the fetus is also less developped and the chances of killing an sentient being are lower. The mental anguish the mother goes through is also significantly reduced. > By the way, approximately 41 abortions are performed daily in this country > AFTER the 20th week! The 20th week = 4.5 months, therefore the embryo is about 4 months old (the weeks are counted from the date of the last period, but most conceptions happen around ovulation), therefore 3 months after the mother first has a chance to find out she is pregnant (1 month between periods + 2 weeks for the tests to work). That is a big delay (you didn't mention what proportion of abortions happen after this period). Knowing female anatomy and psyche a bit more intimately than you, a delay of 2 months seems quite reasonnable to me (having an abortion is not an easy decision, and organising it is not always easy). In Canada, the third month would usually be due to administrative delays, and they are the unnexcusable ones. > Since approximately 97% of abortions in this country > are done for reasons other than rape, incest or to save the life of the > mother, about 40 fully-formed human fetuses are being murdered daily. If Either they are murdered or not; rape, incest or life-saving have nothing to do with the moral validity of a particular abortion. > you don't know what a 20-week-old fetus looks like, look it up. This > being is not a blob of tissue; it is easily recognizable as a human being. > It can feel and responds to pain. The horrors imposed by a late abortion > would sicken the unknowledgeable. Dismemberment and saline solutions are > common abortion methods for late abortions. Yes, they are disgusting, and that's why abortions should be performed as soon as is possible. > Would even the cruelest among > us advocate these methods for the execution of death-row prisoners? Pro- Oh, cut out the rethoric, will ya. We're not talking about death-row prisonners, but about fetuses. > choicers like to talk alot about incest, rape, the plight or poor women, etc. > but somehow forget to talk about the people who use abortion to cover up > extramarital sex and as birth control. We can't define life based on "cover up extramarital sex", that's an ineresting concept. I guess we should outlaw it instead then (oops, sorry, I'm getting snarky now...) > a perverted notion of convenience and freedom. We have to protect everyone's > rights if we are to protect our own. > > When they persecuted you for being Black, > I sat quiet for it did not effect me. > When they persecuted you for being religious, > I was too busy to help you. > When they persecuted you in your old age, > I turned away because I couldn't relate. > When they persecuted me, I cried for help, > but there was no one left to help me. > > Matt Noah Oh shut up! This little poem is really cute, but after hearing each and every group who has an opinion use it, even if it is completely irrelevant to their case, one gets a little sick of it. This poem has nothing to do with fetuses (noone is trying to extend abortions to post-birth babies, and the people having abortions are the mothers of babies, not a centralised police state). And just to let you know that I am not picking on you because I disagree with you, let me add that I also believe that this poem that I also believe that it has nothing to do with nuclear annihilation (something I am against) because nuclear bombs will not act surreptitiously, and pick on one group of people after another. -- Sophie Quigley {allegra|decvax|ihnp4|linus|watmath}!utzoo!mnetor!sophie
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (06/18/85)
Sophie Quigley, responding to Matt Noah, remarks parenthetically: > (noone is trying to extend abortions to post-birth > babies ... ). Maybe no one in this discussion is trying to do that, but there are those who believe that infanticide is the next logical step after abortion. I.e., as abortion is considered more and more acceptable, infanticide will also become acceptable. Let it be noted that some of those who see infanticide as a successor to abortion are not opposed to either. (And yes, I will provide references; it may be a while, as I am already behind in posting references.) For now, though, consider the recent cases of infants being allowed to starve to death because the parents would not allow corrective surgery to be performed. One such is the famous "Baby Doe" case. The courts upheld the parents' right to have the baby starved to death, even though more than one couple was willing to adopt the child and provide the necessary care. Gary Samuelson ittvax!bunker!garys
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (csdf) (06/19/85)
<237@mit-vax.UUCP> cancelled from rn.
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (csdf) (06/19/85)
In article <877@bunker.UUCP> garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) writes: >Sophie Quigley, responding to Matt Noah, remarks parenthetically: > >> (noone is trying to extend abortions to post-birth >> babies ... ). > >Maybe no one in this discussion is trying to do that, but there are >those who believe that infanticide is the next logical step after >abortion. I.e., as abortion is considered more and more acceptable, >infanticide will also become acceptable. Let it be noted that some >of those who see infanticide as a successor to abortion are not >opposed to either. (And yes, I will provide references; it may be >a while, as I am already behind in posting references.) Narrow-minded pro-lifers cannot tell the difference between a human and a fetus. They're willing to believe that any blob of protoplasm that is extracted from a human female is a "baby". Thus, they don't realize that more rational folks wouldn't consider allowing the killing of infants for any reason. >For now, though, consider the recent cases of infants being allowed >to starve to death because the parents would not allow corrective >surgery to be performed. One such is the famous "Baby Doe" case. >The courts upheld the parents' right to have the baby starved to >death, even though more than one couple was willing to adopt the >child and provide the necessary care. > >Gary Samuelson >ittvax!bunker!garys Gary, if you twist this story any more, it's liable to break. Many times in the past, the courts have allowed the gaurdians of a severely crippled person the right to refuse medical attention for them. This has happened when the patients were 8 weeks, 8 yrs or 80 years. Thus, I argue that "Baby Doe" has nothing to do with abortion and that discussion belongs on .medical or something. This is pure sensationalsim. -- Charles Forsythe CSDF@MIT-VAX "The Church of Fred has yet to come under attack. No one knows about it." -Rev. Wang Zeep