sas@lanl.ARPA (07/24/85)
I hope that none of you think that abortion is a positive experience. Most people of the pro-choice leaning that I know agree that abortion is a big decision and that indiscriminate abortion is unhealthy for both the would-be mother and the society she lives in. Among the pro-lifers I know, I see more fanatacism but the view they are fighting for is a little more critical to them. I hope that pro-choicers realize that they are fighting for a relatively minor cause compared to the one of the pro-lifers (from their own perspective of course). Socially accepted murder vs. more government involvement in personal decisions that cause non-trivial but rarely life-threatening inconvenience. I expect the pro-life movement to be a little exciteable given what they feel is at stake. The pro-choice movement is fighting for something not unlike (in magnitude) what the NRA is fighting for. (incidentally, I expect that there are more pro-choice people who are anti-gun than there are pro-life people who are pro-gun.) The pro-gunners want the right to bear arms, usually a convenience but conceivably the difference between life and death. Pro-gunners have really been challenged only on their right to have easily concealable weapons inside certain high-crime areas and to not have to register weapons. The medical "facts" that have been used to support abortion all seem to degenerate to the fact that it is easier to terminate a pregnancy than to sustain it without benefit of a mother. I am appalled at the number of times I have seen the word "parasite" used. When a woman voluntarily has sex with a man, she "invites" the "little parasite" to take up residence if she doesn't use birth control. When a "couple" has sex they take on the responsibility of pregnancy if they don't use effective birth control. It is sad to see so many viewing the issue as a "responsibility" of society to "unburden" them from the biological facts of reproduction. The arguement that effective birth control is not available is weak. It isn't amazing that birth control isn't 100% effective when it is viewed as a right rather than a responsibility. The Catholic church (and probably others) feel that any form of birth control other than that of knowledgeable abstinance is wrong. Many responsible Catholics succeed in limiting family size this way. Many others use mechanical methods of birth control much more effectively while others depend on the pill. These all have their limitations but if beeing "free from birth" is important enough to you, you might use all of them! I don't find such a solution inconceivable when contraception is viewed as a responsibility rather than a right. When abortion is a 100% effective form of birth control that requires no forethought, it is no wonder so many desire it! It is inconvenient that we as a species are so fertile, but not very amazing when you consider our evolutionary heritage. We wouldn't be here if our genes dictated ZPG. So if we want ZPG we should accept it as a responsibility not a right! I might listen to someone who As has been pointed out in this newsgroup by some of the more polite and less fanatic posters here, the abortion issue will not be resolved by legislation either way. The law now supports much of the abortion as desired by pro-choice groups, and pro-life groups are bombing abortion centers. If abortion were again prohibited by law, pro-choice groups would probably take over the violence. I do not advocate strictly banning all abortion, it isn't enforceable and I agree with pro-choicers that it isn't nice to mess in other peoples lives. I do, however, advocate a strong change in the social environment that not only accepts abortion as birth control but seems to encourage it. Were abortion more frowned upon, I believe that many more of the alternatives, (birth control, adoption, and unplanned parenthood), would be more accepted. I wonder how many of us would be here today if our parents had accepted abortion as an acceptable form of birth control. Many of us probably were "mistakes" that were nonetheless accepted and nurtured to what we are today. I certainly would not accept the notion of government funded abortion without mandatory sterilization. What about government funded sterilization? The biggest arguement I have seen for abortion is unwanted children and ZPG. If we beleive that abortion is strictly a social issue of unwanted children and zero population growth then it would be criminal to deny a person sterilization based on ability to pay. While the denial of an abortion may seem a victimization of the woman involved, isn't the widespread acceptance of abortion similar? How many women who don't want an abortion find themselves pressed toward it by friends, family, coworkers, boyfriend or even husband. How many men have demanded that their spouse or girlfriend have an abortion? Steve Smith
desjardins@h-sc1.UUCP (marie desjardins) (07/29/85)
In response to Steve Smith's article: (I have quoted only twice; I think most of my arguments stand on their own, although they were written as a rebuttal). How can you say pro-choicers don't feel as strongly about the issue as pro-lifers? It is much, much, MUCH more than just "government intervention." It is taking away the basic human need of dignity and the ability to do what one wants with ones own life. It is taking away so much of what women have gained in their fight for equality. I doubt very strongly that I will ever have an abortion, and yet every time I think that right may be taken away, not just from me, but from all women in every situation, a piece of me dies. And if the pro-lifers win this fight, I will be devastated. (And I doubt I am the most emotional of the pro-choicers, or even close to being the most emotional.) To address just a few of your points (although I am sure I will never convince you of anything, but I have to try): No, a woman is not INVITING pregnancy. She is risking pregnancy. A woman who seeks an abortion is not "viewing the issue as a 'responsibility' of society to 'unburden' them from the biological facts of repro- duction." She is merely claiming her right to do what she wishes with her body. It is NOT society's responsibility, which is exactly the point. Society's only responsibility is (to put it mildly) to stay the hell out of her life. Also, the only 100% effective methods of birth control are abstinence and the pill. I will not even argue the issue of abstinence with you. The pill can be quite dangerous for some people. ALL forms of birth control have their problems, and all are fallible. And I most certainly will not agree with you that all women should use birth control or accept the consequences until this society takes a stronger stand on requiring men to take responsibility for birth control. Lastly, I don't think that anyone in their right minds uses abortion simply as a method of birth control. Women agonize over their choice, but it must be THEIR choice! It is a last resort. I don't think that anybody is encouraged to use abortion as a method of birth control, but I don't think that tormenting those who do need to have an abortion (yes, I said NEED) is any solution. Education would probably help, and open-mindedness in parents would certainly help, but these things don't happen overnight. And yes, I agree with you, no woman should be forced to have an abortion! If she chooses not to, it must be the father's responsibility to help financially (and preferably emotionally, but that's almost certainly impossible). See discussion above of men's responsibility for birth control. marie desjardins park
tw8023@pyuxii.UUCP (T Wheeler) (07/31/85)
Marie's article was interesting, though somewhat naive in one area. Abortion as a birth control method is very much an issue in the discussions I have seen on this net. The Planned Parenthood office in our area encourages this form of birth control and has discontinued counseling for other methods of control. Quite a few posters in this group defend abortion as a method of birth control. Some have gone so far as to advocate abortion as a method of reducing the poor ethnic populations in this country (a racist attitude if I ever heard one). I have no problems with your feelings about abortion Marie. You seem to be thinking in a more serious vein than many of the twits on the net who have only selfish motives for advocating abortion. T. C. Wheeler
mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) (08/01/85)
> The Planned > Parenthood office in our area encourages this form of birth > control and has discontinued counseling for other methods > of control. > > T. C. Wheeler Do you go to Planned Parenthood? Where did you hear this nonsense? I have been going to Planned Parenthood clinics for years, and they all DESPERATELY want females to avoid unwanted pregnancy. They provide birth control counseling for many types of birth control, for both males and females. I will state with absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is not a single Planned Parenthood in the WORLD that encourages the exclusive use of abortions for birth control. In other words, you are lying, bucko. Marcia Bear
wine@homxa.UUCP (J.GORDON) (08/02/85)
T. C. Wheeler writes: >Marie's article was interesting, though somewhat naive in one >area. Abortion as a birth control method is very much an issue >in the discussions I have seen on this net. The Planned ^^^^^^^^^^^ >Parenthood office in our area encourages this form of birth ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >control and has discontinued counseling for other methods ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >of control. Quite a few posters in this group defend abortion ^^^^^^^^^^^ >as a method of birth control. Some have gone so far as to >advocate abortion as a method of reducing the poor ethnic >populations in this country (a racist attitude if I ever heard >one). I don't know where Wheeler gets his information from. All the Planned Parenthood brochures I have ever seen stress other forms of birth control. When you walk into a Planned Parenthood office, there are always piles of informative pamphlets on birth control methods, VD, etc. It is typical of pro-life advocates to spread false propaganda about PP and other pro-choice counseling services. To Tim Wheeler: The next time you decide to propagate damaging "facts" about PP, etc., please back up your information -- where did you read the above "fact" about your local office: in one of your pro-life journals, or in a reputable newspaper? Jim Gordon, Jr.
tw8023@pyuxii.UUCP (T Wheeler) (08/02/85)
In the first place, my name is not Tim so don't assume what you do not know. In the second place, my information comes from two women who went to PP for birth control advice and were told to go to their own doctor. That's good enough for me. The same information, from other sources, has been printed on this net several times. That is also good enough for me. PP in our area has turned into an abortion clinic. What they do in your areas I did not assume. If you will reread my posting, you will see I am talking about our local clinic. So, twits, before you start yelling liar, take off your rose colored glasses and join the real world. T. C. Wheeler
mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) (08/05/85)
> In the second place, my information comes from two women who went > to PP for birth control advice and were told to go to their own > doctor. That's good enough for me. The same information, from other > sources, has been printed on this net several times. That is also > good enough for me. PP in our area has turned into an abortion > clinic. What they do in your areas I did not assume. If you will > reread my posting, you will see I am talking about our local clinic. > So, twits, before you start yelling liar, take off your rose > colored glasses and join the real world. > T. C. Wheeler Planned Parenthood does not vary their views from site to site. They have ONE general philosophy, which is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Note that this is the PREVENTION, not the aborting, of unwanted pregnancies. This has always been their goal, and I can not believe this would be different at any PP clinic in the world, let alone this country. In fact, all the PP clinics I know of don't do ANY abortions, although they will refer people to places that will do them. Their entire emphasis is on birth control. I support PP and have done a lot of research on them and birth control in general. Perhaps you were confusing some other clinic with Planned Parenthood and not meaning to mislead. But it sounds a lot like false propaganda to me. If you would care to send me the phone # of this supposed PP clinic that only does abortions, I would be glad to call them and give a reader report. yours truly, Marcia Bear