mn@dscvax2.UUCP (Matt Noah) (07/20/85)
I would like to encourage anyone who has not stood in the trenches of a sidewalk counseling effort to do so. If the abortion clinic in your area is anything like Santa Barbara's you will soon realize that people are not making informed choices and that many of their reasons/arguments for abortion are irrational or bigoted or any number of universally unappealing ... I was having a friendly, rational discussion with a woman outside a clinic last week. Her friend was in having an abortion. I was supplying her with some information that she was seemingly taking in. Although her opinion was hostile to mine the only argument she presented for keeping abortions legal was "If you had a 13-year-old daughter who was raped by a Black ...". Just today, a couple listened intently to a number of arguments including the argument that an 8-week-old fetus has both a heartbeat and an immature but functioning central nervous system - the 'message center' of feeling. When they heard that they were visibly upset. Surprising? No. Abortionists don't tell pregnant women the whole truth typically. They talk about the procedure and how it will affect them if everything goes alright. The effects they talk about are possible bleeding, nausea, etc. Nothing about the form of abortion. When the young man I was talking to heard that his *female escortee* was going to have a suction abortion and that a suction abortion basically uses air pressure to suck and tear limbs from the fetus he was overcome. He then walked away at the prodding of his companion only to say that "some things just have to be done, I guess". Whether he believed us was questionable. I believe he fell compelled to carry out what he was intending to do that morning regardless. In my experience as a sidewalk counselor I have not seen a great number of informed or happy people enter or leave a clinic. Matt Noah :wq
mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) (07/25/85)
re: Matt Noah, sidewalk abortion counselor Sidewalk COUNSELOR? All the people I have ever seen lurking outside of abortion clinics are just harassing people, even threatening them. It's really much too late to argue about abortion outside of clinics. If you are so concerned about this, why don't you do something useful and do volunteer work for Planned Parenthood, or some other group trying to get people to use birth control?!? MUCH more productive. Please understand that pro-choice folks would be happy to see no abortions, but this can only happen when there are no unwanted pregnancies. Perhaps the manner in which abortions are carried out upsets you, but I think you are just playing on emotions here. In almost all abortions the fetus is less than 12 week old, and no one has *any* evidence that they can feel *anything*. I guess you must not approve of the way cattle or pigs are slaughtered either. Lots of blood and pain for sure. But of course you're a vegetarian... Marcia Bear P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about abortion too much.
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL) (07/25/85)
> I would like to encourage anyone who has not stood in the trenches of a > sidewalk counseling effort to do so. If the abortion clinic in your > area is anything like Santa Barbara's you > will soon realize that people are not making informed choices and that many > of their reasons/arguments for abortion are irrational or bigoted or any number > of universally unappealing ... > I was having a friendly, rational discussion with a woman outside a clinic > last week. Her friend was in having an abortion. I was supplying her with > some information that she was seemingly taking in. Although her opinion was > hostile to mine the only argument she presented for keeping abortions legal > was "If you had a 13-year-old daughter who was raped by a Black ...". > Just today, a couple listened intently to a number of arguments including > the argument that an 8-week-old fetus has both a heartbeat and an immature > but functioning central nervous system - the 'message center' of feeling. > When they heard that they were visibly upset. Surprising? No. Abortionists > don't tell pregnant women the whole truth typically. They talk about the > procedure and how it will affect them if everything goes alright. The effects > they talk about are possible bleeding, nausea, etc. Nothing about the form > of abortion. When the young man I was talking to heard that his *female > escortee* was going to have a suction abortion and that a suction abortion > basically uses air pressure to suck and tear limbs from the fetus he was > overcome. > He then walked away at the prodding of his companion only to say that "some > things just have to be done, I guess". Whether he believed us was > questionable. I believe he fell compelled to carry out what he was intending > to do that morning regardless. > In my experience as a sidewalk counselor I have not seen a great number of > informed or happy people enter or leave a clinic. > > Matt Noah ------------------------------------------------- You, Mr. Noah, seem to be doing everything that you can to make the people even more miserable. As Sophie Quigly so eloquently stated, abortion is often not an easy decision. Your hypocrisy and air of moral superiority are disgusting. You complain about the unhappiness of women entering abortion clinics, yet you do everything you can to make them even more miserable unless they recognize the TRUTH as seen by Matt Noah. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (Charles Forsythe) (07/26/85)
In article <13@dscvax2.UUCP> mn@dscvax2.UUCP (Matt Noah) writes: >If your area is anything like Santa Barbara's you >will soon realize that people are not making informed choices and that many >of their reasons/arguments for abortion are irrational or bigoted or >any number of universally unappealing ... Well Matt, from one member of the intellectual elite to another: a lot of people don't make descisions that *we* find informed or appealing. I even hear that some people base their entire percerptions of reality on a book that claims to be the words of some famous deity! >Although her opinion was >hostile to mine the only argument she presented for keeping abortions legal >was "If you had a 13-year-old daughter who was raped by a Black ...". This may surprise you, but a lot of people don't give the real issues any thought. If this woman is bigoted, it suggests a lack of any social thought on her part. Anyway, what if you had a 13-year-old daughter who was raped by a White? >Just today, a couple listened intently to a number of arguments including >the argument that an 8-week-old fetus has both a heartbeat and an immature >but functioning central nervous system - the 'message center' of feeling. I love your wording! Replace "feeling", a word with emotional overtones, with "sensing", an equally accurate term. Just humor me. >When the young man I was talking to heard that his *female >escortee* was going to have a suction abortion and that a suction abortion >basically uses air pressure to suck and tear limbs from the fetus he was >overcome. I'm not surprised. If I used gerunds such as "sucking", "tearing", "ripping", "maiming", "killing", "hurting" and "mutilating" to describe open heart surgery, an appendix removal or a visit to the dentist, I think most people would be overcome as well. >He then walked away at the prodding of his companion only to say that "some >things just have to be done, I guess". Whether he believed us was >questionable. I believe he fell compelled to carry out what he was intending >to do that morning regardless. Regardless of what? Your propaganda? Maybe he was right, some things do "have to be done." Did you listen to his story? >In my experience as a sidewalk counselor... "Counselor"? Reading sensationalistic literature and reciting it to strangers sounds more like propaganda to me. What qualifies you as a counselor? > ...I have not seen a great number of informed or happy people enter or >leave a clinic. Informed of what? Informed of birth control so as not to face this again? Why don't you do a real service and make sure that everybody knows how to avoid this in the future? Informed that a woman does not have a right to decide for her own body? Grrr. I personally feel that "informed" means knowing both sides, not just yours. "happy"?!! Why do you think that people who have abortions or believe in the freedom of choice concerning them find them pleasant? I don't like the idea. It wouldn't make me happy if MY girlfriend had one, but at least she has the choice. THAT makes me happy. -- Charles Forsythe CSDF@MIT-VAX Wang Zeep:"Lord Fred, how can I show them you are the True God?" Lord Fred:"Because I said I am." Wang Zeep:"Seriously." Lord Fred:"Look, it works for every other religion."
matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) (07/29/85)
> P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have > to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about > abortion too much. > Marcia Bear I know this will flame a lot of people, but . . . since there is only one woman on the Supreme Court, the President is an anti-feminist man, and State legislatures are run by men, we don't have to value Marcia Bear's opinions about abortion too much. If we are upright in our way of life and unstained by male guilt, we need no Moorish darts nor bow nor quiver loaded with poisoned arrows, Marcia, to respond to feminist prejudice. -- Matt Rosenblatt "INTEGER vite scelerisque purus non eget Mauris iaculis neque arcu nec venenatis gravida sagittis, Fusce, pharetra." -- Horace,Ode I.22
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (Charles Forsythe) (07/30/85)
In article <251@brl-tgr.ARPA> matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) writes: >I know this will flame a lot of people, but . . . since there is only one >woman on the Supreme Court, the President is an anti-feminist man, and >State legislatures are run by men, we don't have to value Marcia Bear's >opinions about abortion too much.> > -- Matt Rosenblatt This country is a DEMOCRACY, not a DICTATORSHIP. (We all know better...) Marcia's opinion counts as much as any other VOTER. It is too bad we have an ASSHOLE in the oval office, but it doesn't have to be that way. If the American people elected a president who declared that "the Rosenblatt clan should be exterminated" would you march hapily (and quietly) into a gas chamber? -- Charles Forsythe CSDF@MIT-VAX "You are a stupid fool." -Wang Zeep "I'm not a fool!" -The Hated One
mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) (08/02/85)
> > P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have > > to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about > > abortion too much. > > Marcia Bear > > I know this will flame a lot of people, but . . . since there is only one > woman on the Supreme Court, the President is an anti-feminist man, and > State legislatures are run by men, we don't have to value Marcia Bear's > opinions about abortion too much. If we are upright in our way of life > and unstained by male guilt, we need no Moorish darts nor bow nor quiver > loaded with poisoned arrows, Marcia, to respond to feminist prejudice. > > -- Matt Rosenblatt I was discussing value of opinions from a common sense point of view, not on a legal basis. I don't think this is feminist prejudice. This is similar to placing less value on childless people's opinions of raising children than actual parents, or of unmarried people's views on marriage vs. married people. Since unwanted pregnancy is something a man NEVER has to worry about happening to HIMSELF, I think men's views on abortion are not as relevant as women's. My SO also holds this opinion, as do some other men I know, but I guess they are suffering from "feminist prejudice" too? It just seems logical to me. I never said everybody else had to think this way, but I am sure a lot of them do. The whole idea of 11 old men deciding if I can have an abortion always had made me a little uneasy. Marcia Bear
todd@SCIRTP.UUCP (Todd Jones) (08/03/85)
> re: Matt Noah, sidewalk abortion counselor > > Sidewalk COUNSELOR? All the people I have ever seen lurking outside of > abortion clinics are just harassing people, even threatening them. It's > really much too late to argue about abortion outside of clinics. If you > are so concerned about this, why don't you do something useful and do > volunteer work for Planned Parenthood, or some other group trying to get > people to use birth control?!? > > Marcia Bear > > P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have > to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about > abortion too much. Marcia, pardon my Y chromosome. I support a woman's right to abortion. I can only say I hope your suggestion of getting "pro-lifers" to work for planned parenthood was used to illustrate some of the hypocracy of the "pro-life" movement. I don't think Planned Parenthood's philosophies would harmonize with the sexist "copulate-and-suffer" attitude of many "pro-lifers." BTW, are you assuming there is a correlation between gender and opinions on abortion? I have never seen any pattern. ||||||| || || [ O-O ] Todd Jones \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd | ~ | |___| SCI Systems Inc. doesn't necessarily agree with Todd.
tdn@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Thomas Newton) (08/05/85)
> . . . I don't think Planned Parenthood's philosophies would harmonize > with the sexist "copulate-and-suffer" attitude of many "pro-lifers." I suppose comments could be made about many "pro-choicers" whose attitude is "copulate and make the baby suffer". But if 'suffering' results from an activity, who should bear its costs: the people who decided to engage in that activity, or another person who didn't exist before the start of the activity and therefore had no control over it? Would you oppose laws against drunk driving because there may be some people who have a "drink and suffer" attitude? And would the existence of such people invalidate the other, good arguments against drunk driving? Or would bringing the issue up often just tend to smear the other people against drunk driving by association? -- Thomas Newton Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA
mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) (08/05/85)
> > P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have > > to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about > > abortion too much. > > Marcia, pardon my Y chromosome. I support a woman's right to abortion. > I can only say I hope your suggestion of getting "pro-lifers" to work > for planned parenthood was used to illustrate some of the hypocracy of > the "pro-life" movement. I don't think Planned Parenthood's philosophies > would harmonize with the sexist "copulate-and-suffer" attitude of many > "pro-lifers." > > BTW, are you assuming there is a correlation between gender and opinions > on abortion? I have never seen any pattern. > Todd Jones If men believe it should be a woman's choice, I heartily agree. If they think they are somehow qualified to interfere with abortions because of their own opinions, I think they can just hold their breathe until they turn blue. The men I know best are pro-choice, and I do value their opinions, because they are leaving it to each woman to decide for herself. What I don't believe in is men saying "no abortions" when they never have to face unwanted pregnancies directly. I mean, sure it's easy for THEM to say that... It's like passing a law that you don't personally have to obey. re: gender differences on abortion. The last poll I remember seeing showed a majority of each in favor of the pro-choice view, with a few %pts. more for one side, I don't remember which. If anybody knows anything significant about this difference, I would like to hear about it. Marcia Bear
csdf@mit-vax.UUCP (Charles Forsythe) (08/06/85)
In article <412@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA> Thomas Newton writes: >I suppose comments could be made about many "pro-choicers" whose attitude >is "copulate and make the baby suffer". There are no such attitudes. The fetus is destroyed before it becomes a baby and is forced into a life of hardship. >Would you oppose laws against drunk driving because there may be some >people who have a "drink and suffer" attitude? What IS a "drink and suffer" attitude? -- Charles Forsythe CSDF@MIT-VAX "You are a stupid fool." -Wang Zeep "I'm not a fool!" -The Hated One
foy@aero.ARPA (Richard Foy ) (08/08/85)
In article <509@ihu1e.UUCP> mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) writes: > >re: gender differences on abortion. The last poll I remember seeing showed >a majority of each in favor of the pro-choice view, with a few %pts. more >for one side, I don't remember which. If anybody knows anything significant >about this difference, I would like to hear about it. > >Marcia Bear > I don't know anything about this gender difference. I believe that the real problem is not so much the difference in pro-life or pro-choice. I think that it is committment to the view. For example I am pro-choice but I don't have a lot of committment to that view. I don't write a lot of letters to Congress or do a lot of other things to insure pro-choice. Many women do. I believe that many pro-life males do have a large committment to that view; that they have a strong enough committment that they will do a lot to convince people running for and in Congress that they will lose votes if they don't vote pro-life. Fortunately Congresspeople who are pro-choice tend to be pro a lot of other things I am pro. However I think that males like me should remind our representatives a little more often of our pro-choice views.
galenr@iddic.UUCP (Galen Redfield) (08/14/85)
In article <509@ihu1e.UUCP> mjv@ihu1e.UUCP (Vlach) writes: >> > P.S. I know this will flame a lot of people, but...since men never have >> > to worry about getting pregnant, I never value their opinions about >> > abortion too much. >> >> Marcia, pardon my Y chromosome. I support a woman's right to abortion. >> [editted out comments about Planned Parenthood, etc.] >> >> BTW, are you assuming there is a correlation between gender and opinions >> on abortion? I have never seen any pattern. >> Todd Jones > >If men believe it should be a woman's choice, I heartily agree. If they >think they are somehow qualified to interfere with abortions because of >their own opinions, I think they can just hold their breathe until they >turn blue. The men I know best are pro-choice, and I do value their >opinions, because they are leaving it to each woman to decide for herself. >What I don't believe in is men saying "no abortions" when they never have >to face unwanted pregnancies directly. I mean, sure it's easy for THEM to >say that... It's like passing a law that you don't personally have to obey. > >re: gender differences on abortion. The last poll I remember seeing showed >a majority of each in favor of the pro-choice view, with a few %pts. more >for one side, I don't remember which. If anybody knows anything significant >about this difference, I would like to hear about it. > >Marcia Bear If I may be so bold as to interject some remarks: Before we decide who gets to decide, maybe we should decide who gets to decide who gets to decide.... Seriously, if we take this nearly-well-thought-out idea to the obvious next step, only pregnant women and perhaps formerly pregnant women should decide the issue. How can any woman who has never faced an unwanted pregnancy know what it will be like? How can she decide if the mysterious fetus is part of her body or not, alive or not, human or not, unless she has experienced it? Perhaps we should demand that Ronnie appoint a pregnant women to the Supreme Court. I think that deciding ahead of time whose opinions have value and whose do not, without any regard for the opinion or the ideas from which it is derived, qualifies in every way for: PREJUDICE. By the way, I belong to the pro-life-choice group, one of the less vocal factions in the quasi-discussion of abortion. Incidentally, I can't hold my breath for more than a couple of minutes. What do you want me to do after that? Warm regards, <-- generic signature Galen (no frills, no disclaimers) P.S. I expect to be flamed. Don't disappoint me, please.