avi@pegasus.UUCP (Avi E. Gross) (02/23/84)
Robert Block made a very reasonable concise attempt at explaining what the ground rules for Kosher are. However, he did mention one rule that I never heard of -- as part of being "Kosher". (pyuxmm!rib) 2 - No prohibited mixture of permitted items a) meat must be separate from dairy b) fish is not eaten *together* with meat He did not have enough room (it takes volumes) to explain what it means to keep meat separate from dairy, although I do agree that this is part of being Kosher. I have never heard of the second point. Where is it written that fish has to be eaten seperately from meat? I know that it is a custom to use a different fork -- or one that has been washed again. I never understood the origin of that custom. Is there really a reason for it, and does mixing meat and fish in the same dish make it treif? Does the same apply for fish and chicken? I honestly believe that this is no different than the way some people are able to use rice on Pesach and some aren't. It is just a custom passed on by some of our parents. We rarely have fish in my parents home on friday night, (and some people tell me that you MUST have fish then), so the situation rarely presents itself. I always assumed that fish was parve, and the reason for the separate fork was to avoid accidentally swallowing the bones, or just to avoid mixing the taste of the fish with anything else. I eat fish with my hands, anyway. :-) -- -=> Avi E. Gross @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6241 suggested paths: [ihnp4, allegra, cbosg, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!avi
mf@cornell.UUCP (02/24/84)
The original reason for the prohibition of fish+meat together is, verbatim,
"mipnei hasakana" = "because of the danger", no mention being made of what
danger(*). So in a way this is not as strick a prohibition as milk products +
meat, which some people interpret as having to wait for 6 hours after a meal
based on meat before eating one containing dairy products (while others, such
as the Dutch, wait only 1 hour -- I'm speaking of Orthodox people -- and then
there is almost the discrete spectrum in between). The other direction (dairy
followed by meat) requires much less waiting time.
In the case of fish and meat, they can (mainstream Orthodox - boy is this
a pain to qualify everything) appear in the same meal; for instance, Jews of
Polish origin would typically have for a Friday dinner ``Guefilte Fisch''
(stuffed fish), then a soup -- usually chicken soup -- then meat, then cakes,
then... But in the traditions which I know there is a custom to use separate
plates and utensils for them. Finally, fish can be eaten with dairy products
too (in non-meat meals), this time no separation being needed at all.
_________
(*) An attempt at guessing what the danger may be: if fish and meat were
served together, the diners might not notice the fish and thus be less
careful, thinking there is only meat served to them. The danger referred
to being fish bones (much more treacherous than meat bones, esp. in such
fish as carp!). To substantiate such a guess would require to know what
kind of dishes were served in the Mishnaic/Talmudic times in the Near-East.arnold@gatech.UUCP (Arnold Robbins) (02/24/84)
When I was in Yeshiva in Israel a few years ago, the custom of using
separate forks for meat and fish was explained to me as being of "Kabbalistic
Origin", sort of implying, don't ask any more about it. I have never
tried to find it in the Shulchan Aruch (literally "the set table", Code Of
Jewish Law), but it is probably in there someplace, either in Orach Chaim
(section on daily laws), or in Yoreh Daiah (section on what is permitted and
forbidden), probably in the former.
There are a surprising number of things which filtered into accepted Law
and practice which are actually of Kabbalistic origin. I don't remember in
detail, but the Mishna Brurah sites the phrasing of the "Rabotai N'varech"
(Friends, let us bless...) opening of the Birkat HaMazon (Grace After Meals)
as being based in the Kabbalah. I can look it up if necessary, and interest
warrants. Anybody care to site any other examples?
Yehudi HaMistovev,
also known as,
--
Arnold Robbins
CSNET: arnold@gatech ARPA: arnold.gatech@CSNet-relay
UUCP: ...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,ut-sally}!gatech!arnold
Did'ja ever have one of those re-incarnations?amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) (02/24/84)
Avi Gross says that he was told that fish is practically obligatory on Friday nights. Fascinating, I thought it was only Catholics who felt that way. I would be interested in knowing why. BTW, on the mixed marriages question, my father, who was a member of the Anglican (Episcopal) Church, married my mother, who was a Jew. A few months after I was born, my parents both converted to Catholicism, but I was baptised as an Anglican. On a third and unrelated topic, I have a question. I have three sons, ages 3, 6, and 8. When should I tell them about the Holocaust? Both my mother's parents died in Auschwitz, so it is part of their heritage. Also, how should I tell them? John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2
mcmillan@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (02/25/84)
I was told recently that separating meat and fish is a custom practised only by some traditional Jewish groups. One explanation offered was the potential difficulty in distinguishing, on your plate, between red fish blood (which may be eaten, I believe, please comment if I am incorrect) and red blood from meat that has not been kashered (which may not). I believe that this separation has been gradually relaxed in recent years. It is still very common, however, to serve the gefulte fish before the meat course, on a separate plate which is removed from the table before serving the meat. - Toby Robison allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison (NOTE! NOT McMillan; Robison.)
ariels@orca.UUCP (02/26/84)
_________
(*) An attempt at guessing what the danger may be: if fish and meat were
served together, the diners might not notice the fish and thus be less
careful, thinking there is only meat served to them. The danger referred
to being fish bones (much more treacherous than meat bones, esp. in such
fish as carp!). To substantiate such a guess would require to know what
kind of dishes were served in the Mishnaic/Talmudic times in the Near-East.
___________
I have no documentation on this, but when I was taught of the "no
meat and fish on the same plate" thing, the rabbi said that it has
been medically discovered that meat and fish react in an unhealthy
manner when combined in the eater's innards. Why this does not apply to meat
eaten directly after fish, I do not know.
Has anyone else heard this? Does anyone have a source for this
"medical" information?
Ariel Shattan
..!tektronix!orca!arielsrib@pyuxdd.UUCP (RI Block) (02/27/84)
Regarding the danger of meat and fish eaten together: In "Kaytzad Tzolin" (How do they roast it?), the seventh chapter of Pesachim from the Babylonian Talmud, a discussion in how the aroma of food cooking in one (small) oven enters and affects other foods in the oven digresses and mentions (Pes. 76b) that meat and fish interact to cause bad breath and "another thing". Rashi, on the spot, tells us this "other thing" is Tzaraat, a skin disease generally, but not correctly (orthodox view) identified as Leprosy. This is brought down as accepted law by the Shulchan Arukh (Yore Deah 116:2). The extract (from Steinsalz) is "one does not roast fish and meat together in one oven (and even more so, one does not cook them in a pot together) because of the suspicion of danger, as in the prohibition of the gemara". The matter is further developed in Shulchan Arukh including what is an acceptable separation in eating. Nowadays, we accept that one should eat and drink at least one thing between fish and meat courses (orthodox view). In my house, we separate the courses with a *pleasant* drink and salad. By the way, eating fish at each sabbath meal, has both Talmudic and Cabbalistic origins and is alluded to in several sabbath songs (zemirot). Note: The translations used in this posting are mine. Also, thanks to Rabbi M. Klughaupt who pointed me to the citations.