burton@fortune.UUCP (Philip Burton) (01/13/84)
I had a similar experience, except that we got a hibachi. Same high pressure,
same "bonus" and of course, same outrageous economics. Also, and maybe I'm
too snobby, looking around the room most of the other people were ones I
wouldn't want to associate with. Too many heavy smoking types, who looked
like they wouldn't keep a place "nice" and would have the kind of kids who
are very violent. You fill in the rest.
Snobbish? Probably. But having experienced year-round condo life (which I
really liked), I know the importance of being compatible with your
neighbors in a condo association, which is what vacation-sharing places are.
Bum deal for people who can't analyze situations rationally.
Philip Burton, Fortune Systems, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive,
Redwood City, CA 94065 (415) 595-8444 x 526
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{allegra,ucbvax!amd70,cbosgd,harpo,hpda,ihnp4,sri-unix}!fortune!burton
--
Philip Burton, Fortune Systems, 101 Twin Dolphin Drive,
Redwood City, CA 94065 (415) 595-8444 x 526
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{allegra,ucbvax!amd70,cbosgd,harpo,hpda,ihnp4,sri-unix}!fortune!burtonbdot@hogpd.UUCP (J.BARRETT) (01/13/84)
I went to one of those timeshare vacation promotional tours and had pretty much the same experience. The salesman tried the "But you are not being logical" angle, but when I took his pencil and paper and SHOWED HIM all the costs involved and how bad a deal it really was, it got him pretty upset. He had also started with the "Can you make your own decisions or do you have to ask someone else first?" ploy to make sure he'll be pitching to the right person. When I said no and he asked why I just said, "It's MY decision and that's what you said you wanted!" I got the high pressure salestalk that everyone else gets but I got a cheap grandfather's clock for it. The 100 rolls of free Kodak film deal is a real rip-off, you get a free roll with every roll you send to some way overpriced developing company. I wouldn't do it again but this time I happened to be in the area for a wedding. By the way, this was Fernwood in the Poconos. I especially loved the picture of Gerald Ford at his timeshare condo in Aspen. If a president does it, it MUST be a good deal right?? John Barrett AT&T IS Lincroft, NJ
jlilien@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Joel Lilienkamp) (01/13/84)
When you buy a vacation tymshare condo, how do control who your co-owners are? After all, when I go on vacation, I don't want to clean up after the previous weeks vacation. Maid services don't necessarily clean up detailed things. And what about damage. Who is accountable, and who repairs. You mentioned that you can either buy for a fixed period or for life. Can you ever buy a slot for all time? One that you can sell when you want, and will to your children, and the whole bit. Do you know what would happen if the time sharing company went belly-up? I vaguely remember hearing something about some people who lost their Florida units when such a thing happened, because although they had a for life time-share, they actually owned the right to use, and not the condos themselves. (Are regular condos like that, or do you own them?) The company's creditors claimed the buildings, evicted all tenants (vacationers I presume) and sold the condos. Those people who had bought the time shares were screwed. And then there's the price. I have always wondered why so many people fell sucker to such a deal. If you are going to pay $23K for your share of the condo, why not find four or five other people who want a similar deal, and just buy a regular condo. A Tahoe condo typically costs between $60K and $140K (they may go lower, and definitely go higher). You can set up a limited partnership, use the condo for your vacations, and rent it out the rest of the year. Your maximum risk payments wouldn't be more than if you bought the condo, plus you get incredible tax benefits along the lines of depreciation and business expenses (advertising, maids, travel, etc.) I was informed by a salesman after asking those questions that I was probably not suited for time sharing ownership, and might as well leave (I guess so the other suckers wouldn't hear the logic of not buying a slice) Joel P.S.: If someone tries to get you to buy something because it is soooooo logical, try this: "I am a computer scientist. I have to deal with logic everyday. Therefore, when I buy things, I like to make illogical, irrational, emotional decisions!" This will at least get you a dropped jaw, if not a little less pressure from the salesman.
topher@cyb-eng.UUCP (Topher Eliot) (01/16/84)
Who decides who gets which time slice? Surely, for every locale, there must be popular and unpopular times of year. Who decides who gets the plum times (Christmas, etc), and what happens to the other co-owners? -- Cheers, Topher Eliot Cyb Systems, Austin, TX ihnp4!ut-sally!cyb-eng!topher
gjm@ihnp4.UUCP (01/18/84)
I just received an AM/FM/FM stereo mpx radio as a promotional gift in exchange for listening and enduring a pitch on "Timesharing" a vacation condominium. World-Wide Vacations, Inc. (WWVI) in Burr Ridge, Illinois claims to be the fastest growing company in the vacation timesharing business in the U.S.A. FYI, the basic idea of timesharing is to buy a portion of time in a condo -- you get to spend your vacation in a condo that you partially own for a fraction of the whole cost of the condo. There are two standard contracts, one called "straight fee" which buys you a fixed time slot in a fixed condo for "life", and a second called "right to use" buys you a time slot in a condo for 20-30 years which can be traded yearly with other condo's (your right to use terminates with the end of the contract). The trade/exchange process is handled for a fee by an organization named International Invitations (I.I.) (or something) with trades for condo's scattered around the globe. W.W.V.I. made the offer for a "charter membership" which includes "straight fee" purchase of a condo time slot in Tahoe, CA, with trade service for their 6 other locations (San Fran, Honolulu, Acapulco, Palm Beach, Sun Valley, ???, growing to 12 including 2 cruise ships). They were offering an immediate sign up bonus of special airline rate membership, one year insurance on your time slot, two years coverage of the I.I. exchange fee, and as the BIG bonus, "Bonus time" which was all the vacation time you want for maid/maintenance costs at one of there 7+ locations with vacancies (17% vacancy is claimed). The $price$ for the "charter membership" was $23K for a two week timeshare, down payment of < $7K, monthly payments of about $336, with a seven year pay timeframe ($33K gross at 15.5% according to the salesman). After I made a statement that I carefully consider my investments, the manager made an offer of $11K for a one week timeshare with all the immediate sign up bonuses. The above details are objective, so here are my subjective opinions. The immediate sign up incentive attempts to cover for a deal that may not really be so attractive. In spite of the reasonable arguments against the cost of hotels, etc., they are making a huge profit ($11K times 51 LEGAL weeks is $561K) on a condo that can't cost close to $561K (obviously some of the cost goes to cover the benefits, exchange, etc. -- you end up paying through the nose for everything). The standard high pressure sales tactics were used. The sign now incentive was supposed to be so attractive that it would override reason. They made such a big deal about the "Bonus time" incentive that I asked how many people signed up for the standard membership. The answer was: none -- all of the people sign up at a promotional meeting similar to the one that I attended. The deal from the manager is another standard ploy, and after seeing that I listed myself as a "computer systems engineer", they concentrated on the argument that the deal was logical, and that I wasn't being logical. I felt uncomfortable with the suppressed urge to give in to remedy the situation, but then grew upset at their continued efforts to manipulate. And the important part -- at where I am now (single), I don't want to take expensive luxurious vacations even if I can take them, I want to visit my friends and relatives, or go camping/backpacking with friends. I'm not about to break my personal convictions about investigating investments, and I'm not about to sign with someone I don't know for something about which I know nothing. I'm interested in other people's opinions and/or experiences with vacation condo timesharing. I'll summarize to the net if there is sufficient input and interest. Gary Murakami AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!gjm
op@ames-lm.UUCP (01/19/84)
I purchased 2 weeks of timesharing in Tahoe 3 years ago for $5000 per week.
It came with a 10 year, 12% loan through 1st Interstate Bank.
I got to choose what week and unit I wanted as long as the unit and time
slot I chose was not taken already. Depending on what week you purchased
the sales prices varied. For example you had to buy 2 weeks to cover
Christmas and New Years at about $20000 but for the summer months the price
was about $4500 and went up to $7000 for the winter. What the
purchase entitled me to was the deed of trust to each week which I can do
as I please with. It can be willed, sold, or given away just as long as the
loan is paid off. The only other charge that there is, is the yearly maint.
fee which is $200. The condo is located in Incline Village up the street from
the Hyatt Lake Tahoe. It has 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, a loft with 2 beds, a
washer and dryer, fully equiped kitchen, bar, fireplace, phone, and even an
ironing board and iron. There is a clubhouse that has 2 racquetball courts,
a sauna, a jacquzzi, weight equipment, pool table, game room, a small food
counter, and a lounge with bar service. Outside there are 2 tennis courts,
a swimming pool, and a jacuzzi. If you are staying there during the winter
the clubhouse has a ski filing room and sleds that you can use.
Of all the times that I have been up there I have never had any trouble with
the place being a mess. They have excellent maid service in between intervals.
If something is missing or broken you report it to the clubhouse and they will
send someone over to replace it or fix it.
If you don't want to spend your week in Tahoe you can join a club for about
$50 a year that allows you to trade your week for a comparable
condo somewhere else in the world. I traded for a week at a tennis resort
in Florida that was charging $110 a night for the condo that I got. I only
paid $30 for the paperwork involved. They publish a book with all of the
locations that you can trade and send you a new issue every year.
As you can probably tell I am very happy with my decision to purchase a
timeshare interval. It has worked out very good for me as a tax write-off
and a nice vacation spot. But as with anything else, there is always at least
one thing wrong with some timeshare resorts that you have to look out for.
Be sure that the place is not a hotel room (that is what they sell you in
Reno for the same price) and that you get the deed of trust. That should
lead to many years of happy timesharing.
Michael Lee
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CAwarren@ihnss.UUCP (01/19/84)
I've never understood all of this higher math, but these always looked like a bad deal financially, unless you get some huge tax benefit or can look forward to whopping appreciation in the long run. Take a look at Michael's example (not to single it out, it sounds pretty typical to me): condo cost was $5K, financed at 12%. That's $600/yr interest. Maintenance cost was $200 the fee for joining the swapping club was $50. That works out to $850/yr to "own" a week, without repaying the capital outlay. In comparison, many of these same sorts of places rent out at $100/day or less to individuals. Some come with rental cars at this kind of price, and some give you discounts on week or longer stays. (Last summer, we rented 4 or 5 days at two different operations like this for about $80/day with car.) There are no restrictions on when or where you go, though the prices do vary with the season. (Though not nearly as much as the ownership fees.) With tax benefits, the costs may come out comparable, but for convenience and flexibility, I find it hard to beat the approach of renting it when you need it and not needing to worry about how to make use of it when you don't. I guess I am always skeptical of something that gets the kind of hard sell publicity these things do. -- Warren Montgomery ihnss!warren IH x2494