dbaker@nwuxd.UUCP (Darryl Baker) (02/23/84)
I have married a nice Catholic girl and I'm Jewish. I was wondering if any people in the same situation have some of the same problems we have. Things we can't quite straighten out are: 1) I can't stand religious statuary in the house and my wife misses it especially around Christmas. 2) Her mother is really nice (read that better than mine) except she keeps trying to do things to help me that I wish wouldn't. One time she asked (I do appreaciate that part) to annoit me with holy oil to help me with my asma. 3) Children: we have one and another on the way. Middle of the road is a hard place to live. 4) We go to temple fairly regularly but hardly ever to church this may bother her but she doesn't mention it. There are more but I can't think of them now. One last comment is that I don't like the word Jewish, you can say Hebrew but you sometimes get a debate about that being the language not a religion. Darryl Baker ihnp4!nwuxd!dbaker
pector@ihuxw.UUCP (Scott W. Pector) (02/23/84)
Darryl, To respond to your questions: My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic. My mother was excommunicated when they were married (possibly because she didn't say her children were going to be raised as Catholics, but I'm not certain). In my parents' case, they decided that any boys would be raised as Jews and any girls would be raised as Catholics. When my sister was born, my father said "Hell no! They'll all be Jewish!" Consequently, neither my sister nor myself were raised in any specific faith. Instead, we were told to occasionally read the Bible (particularly the Old Testament). Given that sort of encouragement and the fact that I grew up in Skokie, IL (surely you readers have heard of it by now!), I have leaned more towards Jewish teachings when it comes to religion and philosophy. My wife is Catholic. When we got married in 1981, I had to promise to raise any children as Catholics in order for the wedding to be performed by a priest in my wife's church. I have gone to church with her approxi- mately once a year. Further, she has recently been trying out going to a Lutheran church. Until she makes up her mind, I'm not going to church this year! :-) It's not clear to me how our kids will be raised (we're waiting a couple more years before starting a family). I feel a little bound to honor my agreement with the Catholic church, but my wife says that if she stays a Lutheran, she wants the kids to be taught in the same faith. For my part, I don't worry too much; better that than the kids raised as Moonies (hee-hee)! In all seriousness, I think that it is important for kids to be exposed to some faith while they are growing up, but they should also be encouraged to examine others and to be willing to follow another religion if their judgment leads them to do so (particularly once they reach their late teens and early 20s). For me, I just want my wife to answer the question "why doesn't Daddy go to church with us? Isn't he going to be damned?" with "Daddy doesn't go since the only person he can listen to for an hour without interrupting is himself." (Thanks to Mark Twain for that gem) As far as statuary is concerned, I think the only thing we have like that is the palm leaf my wife gets each year on Palm Sunday. Of course, we have bibles and other religious writings. Her family does not try to anoint me at all; in fact, they never discuss religion with me. I think that is the best thing for relatives and in-laws. The last thing that I can think of is that my wife (who is about to graduate from the U. of Chicago School of Medicine) does not want our sons (if any) to be circumcised. She views the operation as entirely unnecessary. My response to that has been that I'll meet her halfway: the girls won't be circumcised, but the boys will! We still have to work this one out, but I think I'm going to win this one. I, too, would be interested in hearing more from others on "mixed" marriages. Scott Pector
zev@hou2a.UUCP (Z.FARKAS) (02/24/84)
For those interested, according to Orthodox Jewish law, a child's religion follows the mother. (so a child of a non-jewish mother is non-jewish unless the child converts). zev farkas hou2a!zev 201 949 3821
smk@axiom.UUCP (Steven M. Kramer) (02/24/84)
The reason Jews are Jews if their mothers are Jews is simply (and
this is true) -- you know who your mother it -- you can't always
be sure of the father.
--
--steve kramer
{allegra,genrad,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!axiom!smk (UUCP)
linus!axiom!smk@mitre-bedford (MIL)trb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (02/25/84)
Darryl Baker brings up the problems of being a Jewish man who married a
woman who wasn't Jewish. I'm Jewish and not married, but I have long
considered these problems and therefore have some opinions to offer.
Darryl is bothered by Catholic statuary (the rabbis at my yeshiva
called these graven idols, as I recall) and by various Catholic
influences in his family. He realizes that it's hard to live in the
middle of the road.
Indeed, I have decided that it's impossible for a person of integrity
(me, in this instance) to live in the middle of the road. I am apalled
by people who warp the Jewish laws to suit themselves, for instance: A
Jewish man intermarries and says "I'll raise the boys Jewish but not
the girls." That ain't the rules, friend, I'm sorry. Judaism states
that Jewish children come from Jewish mothers (or conversion, NOT a
simple process). Period. No bullshitting around, ok?
Lots of people go to reform temples where they hack Judaism and its
customs in various ways. In Morristown, NJ, there's a temple where
they blow a french horn with the shofar on Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur.
Quaint, but not proper. Rather disgusting, actually, as the hooplah
distracts attention from the shofar and its purpose, which is not,
after all, to sound pretty. The reform movement always seems to be
beautifying Judaism where it isn't exactly necessary, sort of like
Muzak. Maybe they should change the name to Jewzak.
Anyway, I really should not be casting aspersions on sects of Judaism,
but I emphasize that when I talk about Judaism, I mean Judaism by the
book, as practiced by what today is called the orthodox sector.
Back to the problems of intermarriage. If you want to intermarry,
that's your business (btw, that's my opinion, one certainly not shared
by much of the paranoid "Jewish community"). If you want to violate
the laws of Judaism, that's your business and your responsibility.
The important thing to realize is: what you do with your life is your
business, and other people, even other Jews should not be able to
control it, and indeed they can't. They aren't affected by it in a
major way, which is why it's none of their business. On the other
hand, if you go around saying that your tailor made beliefs are
accecptable Jewish beliefs, then you are hurting all Jews by diluting
their beliefs in the eyes of society. For instance. A Jew says: I
don't eat trefe (non-kosher), but I don't buy my meat at a kosher
butcher. There are people out there who think that this is acceptable
modern Judaism. There might be children or other people ignorant in
Jewish law who see this practice and accept it as Jewish law. There,
you're misleading others, which is something I find reprehensible.
This goes, of course, for violating other Jewish laws, like marrying a
woman who isn't Jewish and saying "we'll raise the boys Jewish." This
one is worse, MUCH worse, because you're misleading your children, and
you could be preparing them for disaster should they be "uncovered as
goyim" in later life. Again, nothing wrong with being not being
Jewish, something very wrong with misleading people.
This note has gotten out of hand, reading it myself, I sound like the
narrator from the movie "Reefer Madness" ("Tell your children!"). I do
want to emphasize that living a lie is a horrible idea; go one way or
the other.
Note well, that your religious practices don't make you any more or
less a Jew, they just make you more or less of a practicing Jew. For
instance: I don't keep certain Jewish laws right now. I don't
restrict my diet, I work when it's forbidden (right now, for
instance). I'm still a Jew, as much as any other Jew. What I feel is
important though, is that I don't masquerade. I don't claim that I'm
"kosher in the house" or that I eat kosher food when I go out and eat
food that would be kosher if it were prepared properly (e.g. a roast
beef sandwich from some random place). I know that by Jewish law,
there is a penalty for me to pay later. If you're going to live your
life by some rules, than do it with some integrity.
One thing about Darryl's note which disturbed me, he said:
One last comment is that I don't like the word Jewish, you can
say Hebrew but you sometimes get a debate about that being the
language not a religion.
I don't understand this at all.
I guess my main point here was to elucidate some Jewish beliefs through
my opinions, I hope Jewish part survived through the opinion part. Nu?
Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) (02/27/84)
Andy Tannenbaum seems to be saying that only the Orthodox form of Judaism is authentic, no others need apply. If you want to live by your own interpretation of Torah, and it is not to be found in the Talmud, then what you are doing is all right, but it is not being Jewish. I know that he apologized for casting aspersions on the Reform movement, but that seems to be exactly what he is doing (and, yes, I don't think that playing a French horn along with a shofar is appropriate on Rosh Hoshana either). So tell me, Andy, what about those people who think that the "fence around the Torah" is too high and too enclosing? Are they being authentic Jews? John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2
rlw@wxlvax.UUCP (Richard L. Wexelblat) (02/28/84)
John Hobson takes Andy Tannenbaum to task for saying that Orthodox is the only correct (proper? => kosher?) form of Judiasm. Well, Andy is well able to defend himself on substance but I think we should also look at form. I'm sorry not to be able to quote the specific text. It seemed to me that Andy was expressing a personal opinion. His flavor of Orthodoxy is the only kosher form for him. Fine. I follow a Conservative tradition. If someone wants to tell me that I am thereby less (or not) Jewish, that's his or her problem, not mine. French Horn to accompany the shofar on Yom Kippur? GROSS! In the Reform Cong. where I was raised we used a Trumpet which is obviously what HaShem intended! I, for one, am grateful for the diversity of Judiasm. Inbreeding causes degen- eration and extinction. --Dick Wexelblat (...decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!rlw)