avi@pegasus.UUCP (Avi E. Gross) (02/29/84)
CONTEXT: Lew Mammel raises the question of why some people (rabbis) try to constantly find "loopholes" for all the things they are busy being "fenced" into. Lew, as you probably know, any wooden fences are bound to contain knotholes and loopholes. All you have to do is search or them. :-) More seriously, I would like to ellaborate on the example Lew raised -- the EIRUV. Since Orthodox Jews can not carry more than a distance of 4 cubits (about 8 feet) in "public" property, some people have devised a stratagem for making it into one huge "private" property. Since walled in areas are considered private, they wall the area in with a series of strings that are at the appropriate height off the ground. Much of the Flatbush section in Brooklyn has been treated this way, although many Jews do not trust it. If any part of the enclosing "wall" is broken, then they are committing the mortal sin of carrying on the Sabbath!!!! A while back, some people tried to get the nearby community of "Boro Park" wired this way. I don't know the whole story (somebody, please elaborate), but the issue of church (synagogue) vs state was raised because some public poles and wires would be used. If it had been erected, I wonder whether I could have carried things from my parents' house in Boro Park when I walked to visit friends in Flatbush. BTW, I was not pleased at the question of using public utilities for religion. What about the tons of Christmas ornaments that clog the streets every fall? I think they are even put up by the city! Why should this be any more legal? Personally, I not only find them distasteful (from MY perspective), but a traffic hazard -- because they block the usual signals and make it difficult to spot that red light in the midst of all that color. Anyway, back to the topic. Yes, Lew, people do like to have their conveniences, even when there are laws around to restrict them. This is probably true in many religions. Remember that a loophole is just a way of doing something legally!!!!! An example is the "nine days" every summer when you are not supposed to eat meat. It is amazing how many people find joyous occassions -- such as finishing the study of another book of the Talmud (a "siyum") to celebrate during this period. Of course, anybody who joins in your celebration, can LEGALLY eat as much meat as they want during that meal -- and it is even a mitzvah!!!!! Meanwhile, the guy next door is eating cottage cheese. Is it hypocrisy? Maybe. It is probably no different than using legal income tax sheleters. Laws are made to be circumvented :-) Since Andy Tannenbaum has announced something about his religious preferences, let me (briefly) state mine. I was raised Orthodox, and am relatively knowledgeable in Talmud and related topics. However, I currently am not Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Agnostic or anything else. I am not comfortable with any particular group. I hate the concept of praying in English, but feel too shackled by the more orthodox variants. Since I (like Andy and others) do not CHOOSE to follow many of the rules and regulations, I am between worlds. I don't claim that what I do is consistent with Judaism, but I do claim the right of choosing what is right for me at any given moment. One last comment. There are several other types of "Eiruv", for other purposes. They too tend to be loopholes of various sorts. P.S. All puns you find in the above were probably intentional. -- -=> Avi E. Gross @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6241 suggested paths: [ihnp4, allegra, cbosg, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!avi
sb@linus.UUCP (Shimshon Berkovits) (03/02/84)
Avi's description of the laws and rational of an EIRUV are as I remember them - except in one detail. The original prohibition against carrying on Shabbat refers to a place called "R'shus HaRabbim - the place open to the multitude." This the Talmud defines as an open common in which 100,000 people can pass. Any area smaller than this which is not private property is called a "Karmelis (I don't know the litteral translation)." One of the fences constructed arround the Torah is the forbidding of carrying in a Karmelis. However, that fence is dismantelled if another fence (the EIRUV) is constructed around the Karmelis to make it private property. It should be noted that some sort of agreement has to be made with the governing body of the town(s) inside the EIRUV esentially to rent the space and to give everyone the right of access to the area concerned. This whole process is a business deal executed for the converience of certain of the town's inhabitants. It is hardly the secular government becoming involved in religious matters. Shim