[net.religion.jewish] More Holocaust

martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (03/07/84)

I received this reply to my holocaust article

From **NSC** Tue Mar  6 10:10 CST 1984
>From **NSC** Tue Mar  6 10:10 CST 1984 forwarded by **NSC**
>From amigo2 Tue Mar  6 10:10 CST 1984 remote from ihuxq
To: ihuxt!martillo amigo2
Subject: Re: Holocaust
In-reply-to: your article <298@ihuxt.UUCP>
Status: R

You say that Hitler made war specifically on Rabbinic Judaism. 
Well, MY maternal grandfather, Arnold Gans, was sent to Auschwitz
despite being a throughly assimilated Viennese Jew.  He was a
non-observant factory manager, and a decorated Austrian army officer
from WWI.  Still, he was a Jew, and that's all the Nazis cared
about.  When you say that "the Germans did not molest Karaites or
Samaritans who came under their control," you omit the fact that the
number of Samaritans and Karaites in German hands was miniscule. 
When you go on to say "Hitler did not simply kill people but also
wiped out a culture that was different, more beautiful, and superior
to European culture," you show merely your cultural biases.  There
was much that was beautiful and good about European Jewish culture,
but given the chance, I would just as soon not have lived in a
shtetl, and, I suspect, neither would you.  

I suspect that the statement "if a Jewish parent raises his child as
a secular American of Jewish origin or background, this parent
guarantees that his descendents at the forth or fifth generation
will be non-Jews who may be among the Jew-baiters and persecutors of
that age" is a bit strong.  I particularly distrust the word
"guarantees."  Anyway, do you remember about ten years ago there was
a bit of a flurry when it was discovered that the head of the
American Nazi party chapter in Philadelphia was a Jew?  If you
recall, his upbringing was in an Orthodox household.

I do agree with you that raising Jewish children without giving them
a real sense of their "Yiddushkeit" is a real shame, and I, as a
practicing Catholic, do teach my children about their Jewish roots
and try to give them a pride in their ancestry.

Just a final word as comic relief.  Do you know the story of the Jew
who goes to America and, after some years, returns home to Poland to
see his mother.  When she sees him, she asks "My son, where is your
beard?" 
"Mama, no one wears a beard in America."
"Where are your tzitit and tallis?"
"No one wears them in America."
"Do you keep kasrut?"
"No one bothers to in America."
"Tell me, my son, are you still circumsized?"

				John Hobson
				IW 3E-122
				x0193
				ihuxq!amigo2



I calculate that Arnold Gans's third generation descendents are probably
non-Jews.  My estimate of four or five generations was conservative.

Many netnews readers did not understand my reference to the Karaites.

Much of the Christian antisemitic polemic of the past six hundred years
has been an ideological attack on the torah sheb`al peh.  The Nazis 
accepted this polemic.  After massive research and intellectual
effort (and consultation of Rabbinic Jewish talmidim hakamim)  they
concluded that extermination of Karaites and Samaritans was not a goal of
the final solution.

The Nazis wanted to destroy every vestige of Jewish culture and world
outlook.  They determined that the heart of Jewish culture was the shas.
For various reasons, they determined that the torah shebiktab was not
specifically Jewish.  Logically, the Nazis concluded there was no need to
waste the effort of wiping out Karaites and Samaritans who know nothing of
the torah sheb`al peh.  Since Nazis spent some 9 years in
researching this issue (there were Karaites who lived in Germany), Hobson
is wrong to dismiss my observation as insignificant.

From the Nazi viewpoint, Arnold Gans although a low, common, vulgar and
ignorant Jew -- I am unimpressed by Ashkenazi yihus -- was a lapsed
Rabbinic Jew whose ideas were probably still tainted by the talmud and who
might pollute German spirituality with these ideas.  By upholding the
talmud, the sons and daughters of survivors can achieve a victory over the
Nazis.

As for cultural bias, I must plead guilty.  Americans often proclaim the
glory and superiority of American culture.  Unlike most Ashkenazim, I simply
have pride in my culture.  Why should I stay Jewish, if I consider Jewish
culture to be an inferior culture. The masses of Ashkenazim became apostates
during the 19th century because they concluded that European culture was
superior to Jewish culture.  (This apostasy probably contributed to European
hatred of Jews.  I myself would tend to despise someone who considered himself
to be my cultural inferior.)The behavior of Europeans and Americans during WWII
proved conclusively that Westerners had not changed much since the
crusades although nowadays they are more efficient at murder.

When I say Jewish culture with no qualification , I mean Spanish/oriental
Jewish culture which is the historical norm.  While I admit to 
contempt for Ashkenazim in general, Hobson's statement about the Shtetl is
unfair.  Comparing Shtetl life to living in contemporary America is silly. 
The proper choice would be between living among Eastern European Jews in a 19th
century Shtetl or living among semi-savage 19th century Slavs.  The level of
literacy among the Jews was higher.  The Jews were less violent.  Family
stability seems to have be greater among the Jews.  The status of the Shtetl
Jewess was higher than that of the Slavic woman.  The Jews seem on the whole to
have been more productive.  The preferability of living in the Shtetl should be
obvious even to the most self-hating Vus-Vus.

I submit that this Ashkenazi self-hatred is a more likely cause for that
Philadelphia fellow's behavior than any alleged orthodox upbringing.