lew@ihuxr.UUCP (03/03/84)
My five year mission: to seek out and explore strange new worlds - "Talmud's coming up on the screen now, Captain." Anyway, I read THE WORLD OF THE TALMUD by whom, I forget. It's a Hillel book, aimed at bringing Jewish college students (according to the preface) in touch with their heritage. The book is very short, and gives a general description and background, but very little of the flavor of it. There is a heavy dose of blather about how wonderful and meaningful etc. etc. it is. There is also an element of "protesting too much" with regard to traditional criticisms of Rabbinical emphasis on legalism. It was amusing for me, having no knowledge of the Talmud whatsoever, to find the impressions I formed as I read suddenly be lambasted as "errors which have persisted through centuries". Actually, I did gain some appreciation for the significance of the rules of observance. I can almost see how a person could "get into it". I still draw back, though, from the concept of unquestioning obedience to a code. I find it rankling to read that repetitions in the Torah cannot be thought of as redundant, since the Torah is the perfect Word of God, and therefore meaningful interpretation must be sought. I'm downright offended when the Torah is given supremacy of nature itself as the expression of God. In fact, I found myself wondering as I do in these case, whether those who profess such beliefs really embrace them. For example, the author at one point gave an anthropological description of monotheism as an advance over polytheism. How can one advance to this plane of discussion and still claim to be bound by the concepts being subjected to this humanistic interpretation? Oh well ... On the other hand, I was touched by one of the few excerpts given. This had some Rabbis arguing over who was right on some point. One says, "What if a sign appears to prove I'm right?", at which point the river reverses course (or something like that). The other Rabbis respond, "What does the water know of the Torah?". A voice even comes from above proclaiming, "The Rabbi is right!" The others respond, "the Torah is not in heaven." Here we have the principle of displacement. By fixing on the Torah, the Rabbis are steeled against all sorts of superstition. This excerpt also shows a surprising freeness and informality of expression, which was stated to be characteristic of the Talmud. So, I'm ready to go along with the idea of the richness and wisdom of Talmudic scholarship, and I have come a little closer to comprehending how people can subject themselves to all those rules, but it's still out of my sphere. Lew Mammel, Jr. ihnp4!ihuxr!lew
amigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) (03/05/84)
Lew Mammel states: >> Actually, I did gain some appreciation for the significance >> of the rules of observance. I can almost see how a person >> could "get into it". I still draw back, though, from the >> concept of unquestioning obedience to a code. [Several lines omitted] >> So, I'm ready to go along with the idea of the richness and >> wisdom of Talmudic scholarship, and I have come a little >> closer to comprehending how people can subject themselves to >> all those rules, but it's still out of my sphere. What many people fail to realize is that there is a *basic* difference between Judaism and Christianity. To a Jew, God is inherently unknowable, "No one shall look upon the face of God and live"; but to a Christian, God is revealed in the person of Jesus. What difference does that make? Well, we must ask the question, "how is a person justified?" The answer is, do the will of God. How do we do that? To a Christian, the answer is "be like Christ." To a Jew, the answer is "obey God's law." How do we know what God's law is? By studying Torah. And to make sure that we obey the law, we follow the Talmud, which is a well defined statement of what must be done to make sure that we fulfill the law. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (03/07/84)
x
John Hobson states:
..."And to make sure that we (Jews?) obey the law (John, do you mean oral
or written?) we follow the Talmud, which is a well defined statement of
what must be done to make sure that we fullfill the law."
In *my* experience, I have not found the Talmud to be a well defined
statement; neither have my friends, including those who are graduates
of Y.U. and other respected American Orthodox institutions.
For example, Berachos 1a
Mishna:
From which moment on may one recite....
Gemara:
(long discussion)
Commentary:
(quite a bit)
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that the Talmud is meant to be learned,
by discussion, not unlike the case method in law school. Halacha is drawn
from the Talmud, but the Talmud is not a set of clearly defined rules.
As of today, there are questions that await the coming of the messiah.
I just want to clarify for the casual net reader, that our religion is not
one of blind ambedience to a set of well defined rules, but that the rules
are subject to interpretation and debate. To quote another posted article
"two Jews have three opinions", yes , that includes Talmud.
David Seth Green
Bell Labs 201-564-2290
path ..floyd!mhuxi!dsgzev@hou2a.UUCP (Z.FARKAS) (03/09/84)
Just one little note: you David Seth Green quotes Berachos 1a. You mean 2a. All tractates of the gemara begin at page 2a. I don't know all of the reasons, but one of them is to make you aware that you don't know the whole thing, since the 'first' sheet is missing. Chag Purim Sameach! zev farkas hou2a!zev 201 949 3821