russ@dadla-b.UUCP (03/06/84)
I would like someone in the Jewish community to confirm something about the Jewish acceptance of the Old Testament. I have heard that the Jews do not accept the Book of Isaiah because it is too difficult to explain the many references to Christ. Is this true? Is it just a portion of the Jews? Russell Anderson tektronix!dadla-a!russ
axm9839@acf4.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/21/84)
Or leyom revi'i leparshas Shemini, 17 ADAR II 5744
-----------
The Book of Isaiah (Yesha'yahu) is most certainly a part of the "Old Testament"
(as Russell Anderson calls it - that is NOT a Jewish term).
We most certainly DO ACCEPT the Book of Isaiah as one of the 24 "books" in the
Bible.
As far as what RA says about "it is too difficult to explain the many
references ...", I most vehemently disagree !!!
These "difficulties" (note the quotes) are NOT difficulties. They are
misquotes, quotes taken OUT of context, partial quotes used in a manner to
reflect the INCORRECT viewpoint of those who wish to use them (at least as far
as the REAL meaning goes), and mistranslations.
NOTE that Chazal (our Rabbis of blessed memory) have said that whenever one
comes to "ask" (e.g., these "difficulties") the answer can be found right
nearby.
------
I have no wish or intention to get into long discussions on these matters and
highly suggest that this forum not be used as such, because :
for all those who wish to answer, "d'a mah shetoshiv" !!!
if someone is not well versed (and I mean REALLY WELL VERSED) and tries to
answer, they may cause more problems than the solutions they TRY to propose.
------
I realize that I have expressed myself quite STRONGLY in this article.
I have NO intention of offending ANYONE.
I just feel that such an article MUST be replied to in VERY STRONG terms.
Sometimes, responding w/o taking off the "kid gloves" can magnify the problem
and give some people a misconception about what the writer is trying to
convey.
------
Asher Meth
allegra!cmcl2!acf4!axm9839martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (03/21/84)
_H_i_z_z_u_k _E_m_u_n_a_h (Strengthening of Faith) by Isaac Troki is an excellent refutation of Christianity. It exists in English translation and is currently published. This book refutes Christianity using only information contained in the scripture itself and makes no reference to the oral tradition. Isaac Troki is not a Rabbinical Jew.
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (03/22/84)
From: russ@dadla-b.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Acceptance of Isaiah Message-ID: <559@dadla-b.UUCP> Date: Mon, 5-Mar-84 20:00:41 EST I would like someone in the Jewish community to confirm something about the Jewish acceptance of the Old Testament. I have heard that the Jews do not accept the Book of Isaiah because it is too difficult to explain the many references to Christ. Is this true? Is it just a portion of the Jews? Russell Anderson tektronix!dadla-a!russ No, this is not true at all. Isaiah is indeed Messianic in tone, but to describe it as Christological is to overassume. For many passages, it's simply the interpretation that differs; the text is unclear. In some other cases, it's a question of translation. For example, the most famous reference (Isaiah 7:14) refers to either a "virgin" bearing a child (the Christian interpretation) or to a "young woman" (the Jewish translation). Choosing between variant translations is a task few are competent to perform; even to experts, the meaning of some phrases is at best unclear. One other point: if -- as Jews believe -- Jesus was not the Messiah, the possibility exists that the stories told of him were deliberately cast in the mold of (more or less) vague Biblical prophecies; anyone who did not match those descriptions would not be accepted by the Jews of that time. For example, the Messiah, according to tradition, must be of the House of David -- and Jesus' ancestry is so described (but through Joseph, not Mary....).
russ@dadla-a.UUCP (03/22/84)
I want to thank those who responded to my question about Isaiah. The person that told me that the Jewish people did not accept Isaiah talked like he should know, but I was still sceptical. Could he have been referring to some radical branch of Judism? Russell Anderson tektronix!dadla-b!russ
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (03/22/84)
Steve,
What standing does the Septuagint(sp ?) have in the Jewish
tradition? This Greek translation of the scriptures by 70
Jewish Scholars in about 200 BCE (in Alexandria, Egypt?)
translates Is 7:14 - "almah" - young woman as the Greek
word "parthenos" which means virgin in the usual sense of
the English word. Does this contribute to the solution
or the problem?
Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784lcb@mhuxt.UUCP (BARBALAS) (03/22/84)
Concerning the genealogy of Jesus, it is done through Mary(Luke chapter 3). In the gospel of Matthew, the genealogy is of Joeseph- but he is of the lineage of Jeconiah, and in Jeremiah, it is said that no descendent of Jeconiah will ever be the Messiah.
axm9839@acf4.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/23/84)
Or leyom shishi leparshas Shemini, 19 ADAR II 5744
***********************************************
Bob Brown writes :
What standing does the Septuagint(sp ?) have in the Jewish
tradition? This Greek translation of the scriptures by 70
Jewish Scholars in about 200 BCE (in Alexandria, Egypt?)
translates Is 7:14 - "almah" - young woman as the Greek
word "parthenos" which means virgin in the usual sense of
the English word. Does this contribute to the solution
or the problem?
***********************************************
I will NOT discuss the Septuagint, esp. since I do not feel well-enough versed
to speak authoritatively about it.
Irrespective of how the word "'almah" was translated in the Septuagint (and
translation often detracts from the actual meaning - and you are referring to an
English translation of a Greek translation of a word of a verse written in
Hebrew), the usage of the word "'almah" in Hebrew does NOT necessarily imply the
translation virgin.
See the verse in Mishlei (Proverbs) 30:19.
If one reads this verse it is obvious from the context that the word
"'almah" being used does NOT mean virgin.
---------------------
Again I wish to stress that I feel that this is not the proper forum for
discussion of these matters. I answered here only because I felt that I could
not let this go by unanswered, and I felt able to answer it properly.
I personally do not feel well-qualified enough to answer any and all questions
that might evolve from discussion of these matters.
----------------
Asher Meth
allegra!cmcl2!acf4!axm9839
A Gutten Shabbos to all !!!martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (03/23/84)
Currently, Jews recognize no authority in the Septuagint. The meaning of parthenos in Alexandrian Greek 2100 years ago is hardly certain. There is evidence that it had the same figurative connotations which maid has in current English and Maedchen has in current German. Neither word currently implies never having had sexual intercourse.
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (03/23/84)
>Concerning the genealogy of Jesus, it is done through Mary(Luke chapter 3). >In the gospel of Matthew, the genealogy is of Joeseph- but he is of the >lineage of Jeconiah, and in Jeremiah, it is said that no descendent >of Jeconiah will ever be the Messiah. First: DOES Jeconiah = Jehoiachin ? If yes, then From Matt 1:12-16 we have: "From the time AFTER THE EXILE in Babylon to the birth of Jesus, the following ancestors are listed: Jehoiachin, Shealtiel,...,and Joseph who married Mary the Mother of Jesus, who was called the Messiah" (Good News Bible) I notice when I read Jeremiah 22: 24-30 and 2 Kings 24: 8-17 that King Jehoiachin AND his mother and SONS were all carried off to Babylon with the strong implication that they never would return nor any of their seed. Couple this with Matthew's statement about AFTER the exile I conclude that we are talking about two different people named Jehoiachin(Jeconiah). "Through a glass darkly..etc" Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb} AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga (404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (03/26/84)
Asher,
Where pray tell is the proper place to deal
with my questions on Hebrew ?? What better
place than where a lot of Hebrew scholars gather??
Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (03/27/84)
Bob Brown asks what the status of the Septuagint is in Jewish belief. Briefly, it is not considered to be in any way authoritative or de- finitive -- that honor is accorded only to the "original" Hebrew text. But there is one curious story about that translation. Jewish tradition has it that the Greek ruler (Ptolemy?) commanded 70 rabbis to each produce *individual* translations of the Bible -- and that if the translations didn't agree with each other, he would use that as the justification for all manner of persecutions. Lo and behold -- by a miracle all 70 were identical! Now, it seems to me far more likely that the work was done by a committee of 70 rabbis, rather than each doing an individual translation. And all the story asserts is consistency, not correctness. But it's interesting nevertheless. As for the call that the Jewish community not respond to certain queries -- nonsense! We're all capable of learning something, and we're all capable of teaching. I personally will not join in any attack on or defense of any particular religious belief system -- to my way of thinking, such beliefs neither need nor are capable of any defense -- and in any event I much prefer to teach and learn. --Steve Bellovin
axm9839@acf4.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/27/84)
Or leyom shelishi leparshas Tazria, 23 ADAR II 5744
-----------------
I've gotten some encouraging responses and some flack WRT my articles on the
Isaiah matter. I include one of them here (found in an article posted to the
net) and try to respond.
Asher,
Where pray tell is the proper place to deal
with my questions on Hebrew ?? What better
place than where a lot of Hebrew scholars gather??
Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb}
Bob also asked me about the Septuagint. As I commented in a previous article, I
am not well versed enough in these matters to comment intelligently on them.
Therefore, I deliberately did NOT write about them.
I notice that Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo posted an article about the Septuagint.
I include it here. I refrain from commenting on it, as I mentioned above.
Currently, Jews recognize no authority in the Septuagint. The meaning of
parthenos in Alexandrian Greek 2100 years ago is hardly certain. There is
evidence that it had the same figurative connotations which maid has in
current English and Maedchen has in current German. Neither word
currently implies never having had sexual intercourse.
As far as Bob's question of "where to deal with his questions ?? What better
place than where a lot of Hebrew scholars gather ?? " , I respond :
This net is NOT a place where a lot of Hebrew "scholars" gather - at least
"scholars" in the subject material that Bob is interested in discussing.
Maybe I'm wrong and there are great "scholars" out there who are really "on the
ball" in these topics. If you are out there, send me mail to that effect.
I, for one, certainly do not claim to be a scholar in these matters.
The problem with discussing these matters on the net, among MANY people, is
that everyone will see something that seems interesting, THINK that they know
what they are talking about, add their two cents, and create havoc - because
they are not WELL VERSED and are not speaking from a level of AUTHORITY in the
subject matter.
****************
A little knowledge can be VERY, VERY dangerous, especially in these matters.
****************
If one is really interested in these matters, for the KNOWLEDGE and NOT for ANY
ulterior motive (e.g., missionizing, trying to confuse the unknowledgeable Jew
by "questioning" his beliefs), then, one should consult an Orthodox Jewish
authority/scholar who REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF (esp. in these matters).
We Jews are not a people who proselytize / actively look for converts.
If necessary, we will defend ourselves against those who come to confuse our
brothers. We don't LOOK for such things at every opportunity. We don't ALL
claim to be the ones who are capable of answering these "questions" someone may
have. Thus, you must find someone who is recognized as being competent in the
field before you start asking your "questions." You wouldn't go to a Pre-Med
undergraduate and ask him/her to diagnose and treat a rare disease, would you ?
---------------
It was this kind of a situation that prompted me in my FIRST response to an
article on these matters to say that
I have no wish or intention to get into long discussions on these matters and
highly suggest that this forum not be used as such, because :
for all those who wish to answer, "d'a mah shetoshiv" !!!
if someone is not well versed (and I mean REALLY WELL VERSED) and tries to
answer, they may cause more problems than the solutions they TRY to propose.
--------------
Wow, that was some mouthful !!!!
Asher Meth
allegra!cmcl2!acf4!axm9839aaa@hou5g.UUCP (03/30/84)
I believe that Asher Meth is 100% correct. Aaron Akman