martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/08/84)
I sometimes work for WOJAC (World Organization of Jews from Arab
Countries) in Chicago. Several complaints about Marvel Comics came to me.
I investigated and then wrote this letter to Marvel editors, Mark
Gruenwald and Chris Claremont. I would like opinions to be sent to me.
The Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith is considering following up my
investigation. Personally, I do not think comic books are the proper
forum for some of the issues with which Marvel Comics deals. Some Marvel
comics have verged on propaganda for the author's pet political ideas.
* January 22, 1984
*
*Letter to the Editor
*MARVEL COMICS GROUP
*387 Park Avenue South
*New York, New York 10016
*
*
*Dear Mr. Gruenwald:
*
*Marvel's treatment of Jews distresses me greatly. Marvel writers
*show some awareness that there is a Japanese culture which is
*different from American culture and which possesses its own beauty.
*Marvel has tried to be sympathetic to Russians. Marvel has tried
*to project an awareness of the losses American Indians have
*suffered.
*
*Yet, Marvel has never shown an awareness that there is a Jewish
*culture which is different from American culture and which
*possesses its own beauty. Marvel has never portrayed a Jew who
*knew the least little bit about Judaism.
*
*Marvel has been almost completely unsympathetic to Jewish issues.
*Next to the Germans, Hispanics, Persians, and Greeks, Russians
*count as perhaps the worst anti-Semites and most severe persecutors
*of the Jews. Yet, Kitty Pryde casually develops a crush on Pyotr
*Rasputin, and the issue of Russian anti-Semitism never even comes
*up.
*
*After the Holocaust, it is simply disgusting for any Jew and
*particularly an Ashkenazi (German or European) Jew to assimilate
*into any Western culture. Yet, Bernie Rosenthal casually
*contemplates marriage with Captain America. Since Captain America
*lived and fought during World War II, the Jews in this magazine
*must be absolute ignoramuses not to ask him why the death camps
*were not bombed and why the Allies worked so hard to prevent Jews
*from fleeing Europe.
*
*Marvel shows almost no awareness of the losses Jews have suffered.
*Before the Holocaust most Jews like American Indians lived in a
*self-contained world and were subject to periodic non-Jewish
*violence. Although physically they had less than the non-Jews, they
*had more spiritually. Then they were subjected to an ideological
*assault to make them doubt their culture and finally they were
*exterminated. Recent issues of Captain America try to feel the
*heartache of the American Indians, but the heartache of the Jews is
*missing. Sometimes, I have the impression the writer prefers the
*passing away of the Jewish world even as he mourns the passing of
*the Indian.
*
*Marvel is probably not consciously trying to be insensitive. But
*Marvel writers are most likely only to have contact with the
*ignorant assimilated type of Ashkenazi Jew who are the majority in
*the U.S.A. However, if Marvel is going to treat Jewish subjects,
*Marvel writers must familiarize themselves with a more genuine
*Judaism.
*
*
* Sincerely yours,
*
One story line I found simply offensive:
Captain America persuaded Bernie Rosenthal's parents to sing Silent Night
with him last Christmas. The only Jew who ever wore a head-covering in
Marvel Comics was Bernie Rosenthal's ex-husband who was involved in a
fanatic JDL-like group which was portrayed as being essentially similar to
some neo-Nazi group. I dislike the implication that if I wear a
head-covering I am a JDL-type fanatic. Also while the JDL is not my
favorite group, there is a major ethical distinction between the Nazis who
advocate extermination of certain groups of people and the JDL which does
not advocate such extermination.
Story lines which I find weird:
The treatment of Arab-Jewish relations which appeared in the Hulk was
totally superficial.
The teamup of Sabra (Israel's superheroine) and the Arabian knight
(Egypt's superhero) in the contest of superheroes, which resulted in the
Collector's restoral to life, was bizarre.
There was a character called the Assassin in the Defenders who tried to
murder Russian diplomats because of Russian treatment of the Jews.
Magneto (real name Magnus) who may be a Hungarian Jew developed his
bizarre political philosophy as a child in the death camps. Magneto seems
to have made aliyah (emigrated to Israel) at some point in his life.
Professor Xavier while in Israel after WWII (of the X-Men) took advantage
of the confused mental state of a Jewish woman survivor of the death camps
and got her pregnant.
I am interested in the opinions of Marvel Comics readers on Marvel's
treatment of ethnic groups. I hope some non-Jews will send me some
replies. Groups which Marvel seems to have particularly targeted are
American Indians, Vietnamese, Blacks, Arabs and Japanese.
I received no reply to my letter. But many fewer stories dealing with
Jewish issues have been appearing lately.
--
Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo
(At the narrow passage, there is neither brother nor friend)oz@rlgvax.UUCP (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ) (04/09/84)
I'm sorry. I don't want to write this, I will regret writing this, but I cannot be silent. I am Jewish, I am (at times) too sensitive to peoples reaction to Jews. I do not deny my heritage. I also think that comic books, ESPECIALLY those from Marvel, are for ENTERTAINMENT purposes and do NOT have to deal with the real world in any way, shape or form. Anytime MARVEL has shown a different culture it has been for one reason and one reason ONLY: To have a slightly different plot line to keep a story interesting. I do NOT believe that they are trying to make ANY point what so ever. That is why so many of us "older" readers are looking to the alternate comics for our enjoyment. Marvel has been better then most "main stream comics" (read: DC and Marvel) in showing various ethnic groups. Sgt Fury and his Howling Commandos had just about every group that you cared to mention. THE TOMB OF DRACULA had an EXCELLENT Jewish subplot at one point. The most recent Moon Knight was very good, although somewhat inaccurate. My point is, I don't think the writers at Marvel try to discriminate against various enthnic groups. They write "entertaining" stories about people that are over 6' tall, weigh at least 190 lbs and are either rich and super strong, or are at least super strong. To complain that they are insensitive to Jews is like accusing them of being insensitive to short, fat, weak people. OZ seismo!rlgvax!oz
ciaraldi@rochester.UUCP (Mike Ciaraldi) (04/09/84)
Since the author of the original article asked for responses, here are some from someone who has read a lot of Marvel and other comics over the years. I have never noticed a SYSTEMATIC bad treatment of Jews in Marvel Comics, but I would certainly admit that an author's personal beliefs can color his writings. This can be blatant or subtle, and is probably unavoidable to some extent (since, almiost by definition, someone's "world view" colors his perceptions of the world and how he or she describes it.) A few general points to start off; Because of the sheer volume of mail Marvel receives, the author will not, most likely, receive a personal reply to his letter. In additon, by not addressing it to a particular b magazine, it may have wound up at the bottom of the mail pile instead of going right to the editors involved . Marvel does have a policy that EVERYONE reads all the mail that is addressed to him. The only exception is Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter, (who made the rule). His volume got to the point where he had to hire somebody to read the mail so he would have time to do the rest of his job. He does get reports on the letters, and interesting or important ones get sent on to him. Most Marvel characters are deliberatley non-ethnic, WASP types, I suppose mostly so they would have broader appeal (rather than SEMING to be targeted at a specific group). Some people who are conspicuously Jewish have appeared. Besides Bernie Rosenthal and Kitty Pryde, there a lot of bit players. I specifically remember one of Nova's high school buddies as someone who was delibieratley very Jewish (Star of David, yarmulkah (sp?), etc.) Sorry I can't remember his name, but the comics was cancelled 6 years ago. Moon Knight (Mark Spector) is Jewish, and his father is a rabbi, as revealed in the last few issues. Many people on the Marvel staff are themselves Jewish, although I would gues that most are "assimilated". The founders of modern Marvel, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Jews, as were the Goodman family who owned the company for many years (before selling out to a conglomerate). Len Wein and Marv Wolfman (both at DC now, but shapers of Marvel in the Seventies) are Jewish. And, I seem to recall that Mark Gruenwald is, too (oddly, the person the letter was sent to). Some more specific stuff: I don't think you can condemn all of Marvel based on a few issues picked either at random or deliberatley. The general tone of Marvel seems to be that tolerance is desirable, and prejudice is undesirable. In addition, although superheroes operate to a large extent outside the law, they have (perhaps paradoxically) a pretty strict code of actions. Thus, Spider-Man would not go killing Russian diplomats for the crimes of the soviet state. He wouldn't even kill some supervillain who was trying to kill him, when that would certainly be termed self-defense. Rather, he would try to capture the villain and turn him over to the criminal justice system. Why? As said many times by many, many heroes, if they go around killing people they would not really be any better than the "villains" they oppose. I don't know if I buy this totally, but that is the stanadard marvel hero. So, when Captain America is confronted with a neo-Nazi group and a JDL-type (perhaps exaggerated for the story) group that advocate violence as a general rule, he opposes the TACTICS of both groups. He appeared, to me at least, to be more sympathetic to the JDL-type person, at least willing to admit that he had a grievance. One of Steve Rogers' (Cap's secret identity) neightbors is a Nazi concentration-camp survivor, and about 2 years ago had a long flashback about how Cap broke into the camp and tried to help the prisoners escape. Why didn't Cap try to get the death camps bombed? I don't know, but I suppose that, since they were not bombed in real life, there was no reason why they should have been bombed in Marvel history. It might have been better for the characters, but what would be the rationale with respect to the existence of superheroes (the primary change of history compared to our real world). Why did Kitty and Peter fall in love? Why did an Israeli and an Egyptian superhero team up? Could it maybe be for the same reason that you seem to see an Israeli Miss Universe contestant or Olympic athlete willing to talk with his or her Arab counterpart? Namely, that these people recognize that people are individuals, that they do not necessarily believe or support what their government says or does, (and might not have the power to change it anyway), that they may not necessarily believe what others of the same ethnic group beileive (or are said to believe). There is a word for the practice of assuming that anyone you meet of a particualr group will be like your pre-conceived notion of that group. It's called "prejudice." Now for the personal stuff: I think the author of the article to which this is a reply reveals his own pre-conceptions, and that these particular ones are such that almost ANY treatment of Jews in comics would be unacceptable. He maitains catagorically that assimilation into a non-Jewish culture is bad. He says people who do this a somehow "not as Jewish" because of it (my choice of phrasing). He says that, since 1945, no Jew should even consider marrying a Gentile, because of what happened in Germany. And so on. The point is, he has opinions, to which he is certainly entitled. I happen not to share those opinions. I have a somewhat brighter view of the human race, one which says that people all over are pretty much the same, with similar fears and goals, and not at all easily pushed into pigeonholes because of their racial, religous, or ethnic backgrounds. This is based on my own experiences. For the record, my own background is Italian Catholic, third generation American. I have traveled in the USA and Europe, met people from around the world while at Cornell and the University of Rochester, and found many of my own prejudices demolished over the years by facts. I hope this will stimulate discussion. I also hope the discussion will be of the form "I agree with so-and-so (or disagree with so-and-so) for the following reasons.", and "I think so-and-so misinterpreted what so-and-so saids", and "So-and-so's arguments don't hold water, because..." and so on, and not "He's wrong, I7m right, that's it." Address further commnets to the net or directly to me, Mike Ciaraldi via ARPA: ciaraldi@rochester via Usenet: seismo!rochester!ciaraldi
steven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (04/09/84)
> Dear Mr. Gruenwald: > > Marvel's treatment of Jews distresses me greatly. Marvel writers > show some awareness that there is a Japanese culture which is > different from American culture and which possesses its own beauty. Gosh, Mr. Martillo, are you sure you read the same comic books I did? The last time I saw Japaneese culture, as portrayed in Marvel, it was when Wolverine was chopping up Ninja-clones in an old "samuri-western" type mini-series. I highly doubt that this is the image that the Japaneese would be most complemented by..... > Marvel has tried to be sympathetic to Russians. Marvel has tried > to project an awareness of the losses American Indians have > suffered. > Yet, Marvel has never shown an awareness that there is a Jewish > culture which is different from American culture and which > possesses its own beauty. Please tell me again where Marvel is more "sympathetic to Russians" than it is sympathetic to jews. I personally feel that simply because Marvel has a Russian and Indian as Super Heros, does not mean that they are showing any "culture" in a sympathetic (or any) light. In fact, I don't particularly see even WASP culture shown in much light either (you know -- Hamburgers, French Fries, Movies, and Saturday night necking). Most of the X-men, for instance, seem resigned to spend their time off planet saving the earth from alien monstrosities..... > Marvel has never portrayed a Jew who > knew the least little bit about Judaism. This is perhaps, because of the fact that orthodox jews are not so common on the American scene, which is what Marvel most commonly portrays. > Marvel has been almost completely unsympathetic to Jewish issues. They are not supposed to be. They should be non-political. > Next to the Germans, Hispanics, Persians, and Greeks, Russians > count as perhaps the worst anti-Semites and most severe persecutors > of the Jews. Yet, Kitty Pryde casually develops a crush on Pyotr > Rasputin, and the issue of Russian anti-Semitism never even comes > up. I am only glad that almost all jews are not as predijuced and bigoted as you have just shown yourself to be. How can you believe that simply because Pytor Rasputin is a russian, he has any control of his general society?? You seem amazingly willing to condemn someone (even a comic book character) just on the basis of national origin. I shudder to think what you think of people who happen to be born with Hispanic skin tone...... > Marvel is probably not consciously trying to be insensitive. But > Marvel writers are most likely only to have contact with the > ignorant assimilated type of Ashkenazi Jew who are the majority in > the U.S.A. However, if Marvel is going to treat Jewish subjects, > Marvel writers must familiarize themselves with a more genuine > Judaism. So now you are insulting the same people you say you are trying to protect. I would say more, but I feel nothing I could say could explain more fully the self-indicitiveness of that statement. > Personally, I do not think comic books are the proper > forum for some of the issues with which Marvel Comics deals. Some Marvel > comics have verged on propaganda for the author's pet political ideas. No, they appear to be unbiased. Which is what you seem to be complaining about. > I received no reply to my letter. But many fewer stories dealing with > Jewish issues have been appearing lately. I wonder why?? Steven Maurer p.s. I did not believe up until now that there were any Jewish bogots, being unfortunately sheltered by meeting only the "ignorant assimilated type of Ashkenazi Jew who are the majority in the U.S.A.". I believed, that the Arab accusations about forms of Zionism approaching racism, were totally unfounded and basically nothing but a propaganda ploy. That feeling, I now see is quite wrong. Now the biggest question in my mind is this: how powerful is this racist faction in Israel??? Are they stronger than the KKK in the USA??
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/10/84)
>I'm sorry. I don't want to write this, I will regret writing this, but >I cannot be silent. I am Jewish, I am (at times) too sensitive to peoples >reaction to Jews. I do not deny my heritage. I also think that comic >books, ESPECIALLY those from Marvel, are for ENTERTAINMENT purposes and >do NOT have to deal with the real world in any way, shape or form. I agree but after Marvel was brought to my attention, I read them for approximately 2 years. Marvel does not aim to be pure entertainment. I have noticed some strong tendencies to preach on political issues. This preaching is not purely entertainment. Captain America is the worst offender. Recently, there was a What If story which dealt with a confrontation between the original Captain America (who is also the current Captain America) and the McCarthyite Captain America of the 50's. McCarthyism was a disgusting political philosophy but it was not antisemitic and although Joe McCarthy was guilty of many offenses, he probably was not guilty of personal antisemitism. Charging McCarthyism with antisemitism was part of a Soviet disinformation campaign to draw attention away from the antisemitism of the Slansky trials. Seeing a children's entertainment medium purveying Soviet disinformation (albeit historic) is quite distressing. The USA deserves much honor that during that tense period of the cold war there were very few open expressions of antisemitism although at that time period many Jews were taking part in mindless leftist and communist political movements. If a comparable number of Jews known to be Jews were taking part in similar movements in France at that time period, there would have been pogroms. >Anytime MARVEL has shown a different culture it has been for one reason and >one reason ONLY: To have a slightly different plot line to keep a story >interesting. I do NOT believe that they are trying to make ANY point >what so ever. That is why so many of us "older" readers are looking to >the alternate comics for our enjoyment. Recently, there was a Captain America story in which the whole plot was devoted to the conflict between American and Indian culture. In the story's culmination Captain American humbled himself before the Spirit of the American Indians. In treating the characters as symbols (which was the author's intention) the author was preaching a specific point. >Marvel has been better then most "main stream comics" (read: DC and Marvel) >in showing various ethnic groups. Sgt Fury and his Howling Commandos had >just about every group that you cared to mention. THE TOMB OF DRACULA had >an EXCELLENT Jewish subplot at one point. The most recent Moon Knight was >very good, although somewhat inaccurate. My point is, I don't think the >writers at Marvel try to discriminate against various enthnic groups. They >write "entertaining" stories about people that are over 6' tall, weigh at >least 190 lbs and are either rich and super strong, or are at least super >strong. To complain that they are insensitive to Jews is like accusing them >of being insensitive to short, fat, weak people. Since I am trying to research this question as part of my job at WOJAC, I would be interested which issues of TOD and Sgt. Fury you are describing. I was not accusing Marvel of antisemitism or conscious discrimination but rather of ignorant insensitivity. You yourself state that the Moon Knight issues were somewhat inaccurate. If I were to write a comic book about Blacks, I would try at the very least consult with some knowledgeable Blacks in order to get the facts right. Thereby I might avoid offending the Black community. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals can believe them)
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (04/10/84)
Clearly Mr. Martillo is as judaeocentric as many of the Christian fundamentalists (some of whom submit to net.religion) are christocentric. No, I take it back. He's much more so, as evidenced by his ridicule and disdain for all those who would choose to be different from him. Although I suspect some Christian fundamentalists to harbor similar disdain, I have no reason to assume that because it never evinces itself in a public forum. Mr. Martillo is quite open about his dislike (even hatred) for Ashkenazim (or anyone who holds a different view about what 'real' Judaism is), non-religious Jews (or any Jewish born person who chooses to make his/her own choices in life as opposed to *his* [Martillo's] idea of what choices "must" be made), and just about every ethnic group in the known world (I have yet to hear him say anything other than derisive remarks about any group of people. Mind you, he has said some interesting things in various newsgroups, presenting a unique non-Western-oriented point of view, but this does not compensate for his vitriolic spouting of venom. -- Pardon me for ... oh, never mind!! Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (04/10/84)
-- >> p.s. I did not believe up until now that there were any Jewish bogots, >> being unfortunately sheltered by meeting only the "ignorant assimilated >> type of Ashkenazi Jew who are the majority in the U.S.A.". I believed, >> that the Arab accusations about forms of Zionism approaching racism, >> were totally unfounded and basically nothing but a propaganda ploy. >> That feeling, I now see is quite wrong. >> Now the biggest question in my mind is this: how powerful is this >> racist faction in Israel??? Are they stronger than the KKK in the >> USA?? Congratulations, Mr. Martillo. As an assimilated, Ashkenazi Jew, I have been offended by your contempt and self-righteousness, but found your articles entertaining and informative. I did not care what you thought of me, and I still don't. I don't think the above snippet, in which a non-Jew questions the ethics of Israel, matters too much either, since Israel cannot depend for her survival upon well-intentioned non-Jews (who, at the moment, don't mind our existence). But damn it, I always wince when I see another Jew making a fool of himself. Especially in the name of Jewry. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Apr 84 [21 Germinal An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
chb@vaxine.UUCP (Kool Klezmer) (04/10/84)
<essen, essen, essen..... Right On, Mr. Maurer! I wasn't going to reply to that diatribe when it appeared (I mean, there ARE probably more important places to look for anti_Semitism than in comic books) but I gotta second your scathing reply. Given Mr. Martillo's love of us "ignorant assimilated types" here in the USA, and his habit of generalization of nationalities, I'm surprised he didn't add Jews to that list of (supposed) anti-Semitic populations. Charlie Berg a.k.a. Kool Klezmer ...allegra!linus!vaxine!chb
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/11/84)
>Since the author of the original article asked for responses, >here are some from someone who has read a lot of Marvel >and other comics over the years. >I have never noticed a SYSTEMATIC bad treatment of Jews in >Marvel Comics, but I would certainly admit that an author's >personal beliefs can color his writings. This can be blatant or >subtle, and is probably unavoidable to some extent >(since, almiost by definition, someone's "world view" colors >his perceptions of the world and how he or she describes it.) I was simply curious about Non-Jewish opinion on Marvel's treatment of ethnic groups. So far I have not seen any replies from members of the ethnic groups which Marvel seems to have targeted. A lot of Italians do appear in Marvel comics but I have not seen any particular Italian cultural issues featured in any Marvel magazines. I did not expect Non-Jews to understand exactly what a Jew might find offensive. I often do not understand why Blacks find certain books like Huckleberry Finn offensive but I tend to accept their statement that the books are offensive. Did many Non-Jews understand why "Bridgette Loves Bernie," (A CBS television program) was offensive to the Jewish community? Many Jews seem not to understand what is offensive to the Jewish community. Anne Roiphe in "Generation Without Memory" confessed to being stunned by the reaction when she wrote a column in the New York Times in which she described how her family celebrated Christmas. >A few general points to start off; >Because of the sheer volume of mail Marvel receives, the author >will not, most likely, receive a personal reply to his letter. >In additon, by not addressing it to a particular b >magazine, it may have wound up at the bottom of the mail >pile instead of going right to the editors involved >. Marvel does have a policy that EVERYONE reads all the mail >that is addressed to him. The only exception is Editor-in-Chief >Jim Shooter, (who made the rule). His volume got to the >point where he had to hire somebody to read the mail so >he would have time to do the rest of his job. He does get >reports on the letters, and interesting or important ones >get sent on to him. The letter was on very official stationary in a very official envelope. Marvel editors probably do not get many letters where the name of the organization is embossed in Hebrew, Arabic, and English. >Most Marvel characters are deliberatley non-ethnic, WASP >types, I suppose mostly so they would have broader appeal >(rather than SEMING to be targeted at a specific group). >Some people who are conspicuously Jewish have appeared. >Besides Bernie Rosenthal and Kitty Pryde, there a lot of >bit players. I specifically remember one of Nova's high school >buddies as someone who was delibieratley very Jewish >(Star of David, yarmulkah (sp?), etc.) Sorry I can't remember >his name, but the comics was cancelled 6 years ago. >Moon Knight (Mark Spector) is Jewish, and his father is >a rabbi, as revealed in the last few issues. I only started reading Marvel comics seriously about 4 years ago when I began to receive the first complaints. Therefore I probably missed this particular character. >Many people on the Marvel staff are themselves Jewish, although >I would gues that most are "assimilated". The founders of >modern Marvel, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Jews, as were the >Goodman family who owned the company for many years >(before selling out to a conglomerate). Len Wein and Marv >Wolfman (both at DC now, but shapers of Marvel in the Seventies) >are Jewish. And, I seem to recall that Mark Gruenwald is, too >(oddly, the person the letter was sent to). I wrote the letter to Mark Gruenwald because he was the editor of almost all the issues (except the Assassin issue of the Defenders) which was either weird or somewhat offensive. Probably the most Jewishly offensive movie ever made in the USA was "The Heartbreak Kid." It contained a genuinely nasty depiction of Jewish women, and based the story on a Jewish man's irrational lust for a Non-Jewish woman. I believe the writer, the producer, the director and most of the actors were Jewish. The presence of so many Jews at Marvel would not prevent the dissemination of Jewishly offensive material. >Some more specific stuff: >I don't think you can condemn all of Marvel based on a >few issues picked either at random or deliberatley. >The general tone of Marvel seems to be that tolerance is >desirable, and prejudice is undesirable. >In addition, although superheroes operate to a large extent >outside the law, they have (perhaps paradoxically) >a pretty strict code of actions. Thus, Spider-Man would not >go killing Russian diplomats for the crimes of the soviet state. >He wouldn't even kill some supervillain who was trying to >kill him, when that would certainly be termed self-defense. >Rather, he would try to capture the villain and turn him over to >the criminal justice system. Why? As said many times by many, many >heroes, if they go around killing people they would not really be any >better than the "villains" they oppose. I don't know if I >buy this totally, but that is the stanadard marvel hero. >So, when Captain America is confronted with a neo-Nazi group >and a JDL-type (perhaps exaggerated for the story) group that >advocate violence as a general rule, he opposes the >TACTICS of both groups. He appeared, to me at least, to be >more sympathetic to the JDL-type person, at least willing >to admit that he had a grievance. >One of Steve Rogers' (Cap's secret identity) neightbors is >a Nazi concentration-camp survivor, and about 2 years >ago had a long flashback about how Cap broke into the camp >and tried to help the prisoners escape. Is this the character who was called an old Jew by one Steve Rogers' offensive business associates. Steve Rogers immediately reacted to this act of bigotry. I assume Marvel used Jew in place of Kike or some other slur. I would have preferred the Author to have used an actually offensive term. English is a nice language because saying "I am a Jew" is not like announcing one suffers from some disgusting contagious disease. "Soy un Judio" should never be said in Spanish. "Soy un Israelita" is preferable. If I identify a classmate as "that handsome Chinese fellow," the idea is very different from saying "that handsome Chink." The Author of the story seemed to say merely to be identified as Jewish is necessarily bad. >Why didn't Cap try to get the death camps bombed? >I don't know, but I suppose that, since they were not bombed >in real life, there was no reason why they should have >been bombed in Marvel history. It might have been better for the >characters, but what would be the rationale with respect to >the existence of superheroes (the primary change of history >compared to our real world). Marvel constantly deals with real political issues. The Invaders had a story on the wartime imprisonment of American Japanese in concentration camps. The Warsaw Ghetto rebellion also occurred in Marvel History. Since Captain America was answerable directly to President Roosevelt and frequently consulted with him, a story in which Captain America asked the President about the death camps would hardly be unreasonable though of course such a question need not be the main point of the story. >Why did Kitty and Peter fall in love? Why did an Israeli and an >Egyptian superhero team up? Could it maybe be for the same reason >that you seem to see an Israeli Miss Universe contestant or >Olympic athlete willing to talk with his or her Arab >counterpart? Namely, that these people recognize that people >are individuals, that they do not necessarily believe or >support what their government says or does, >(and might not have the power to change it anyway), >that they may not necessarily believe what others of >the same ethnic group beileive (or are said to believe). >There is a word for the practice of assuming that anyone >you meet of a particualr group will be like your >pre-conceived notion of that group. >It's called "prejudice." I perhaps should have explained in more detail exactly why these story lines were weird or offensive. Pyotr Rasputin is specifically identified as coming from a class of Russians which is historically and currently the most anti-Semitic group in the Soviet Union. One of my complainants was a Russian Jew who was using Marvel Comics to learn idiomatic English. (I also did the same 14 years ago when I came to America but I preferred DC). He felt it was inconceivable that Kitty Pryde's Jewishness could not be an issue in such a relationship. The teamup of Sabra and the Arabian Knight was mishandled for several reasons. Their personal conflict was reduced to an issue of sexual chauvinism. Such reduction is silly because in fact traditional Muslim and traditional Jewish attitudes toward women are similar. All Marvel stories of Muslim/Jewish interaction have ignored the history of Jews in Muslim lands. Such a criticism may seem minor. Yet most Israeli Jews have their origins in Muslim lands. This demography has become an overwhelming political consideration in Israel and consequently in any settlement. If Marvel is going to treat Middle Eastern issues, Marvel has an obligation to do a little research and note the demographic situation. In France where the demographic composition of the Jewish community is similar to Israel, the persistent obliviousness of certain sections of the leftist press to historic Muslim subjugation of Jews has been termed antisemitism even by Non-Jewish political writers. There is some more inappropiateness to Sabra. Sabra is not a Hebrew word. It is a Yiddishized form of an Arabic word. Current usage considers "sabra" inelegant. The proper word is Tsabar. No one in Israel takes Russian anarcho-sexual egalitarianism seriously anymore. A woman would never be selected to be Israel's supersoldier. As Sabra is described, she comes close to being an offensive Ashkenazi stereotype (at least to Spanish and oriental Jews). >Now for the personal stuff: >I think the author of the article to which this is a reply >reveals his own pre-conceptions, and that these particular ones >are such that almost ANY treatment of Jews in comics >would be unacceptable. He maitains catagorically that >assimilation into a non-Jewish culture is bad. He says >people who do this a somehow "not as Jewish" because of it >(my choice of phrasing). He says that, since 1945, no Jew >should even consider marrying a Gentile, because of what happened >in Germany. And so on. Marvel always portrays American Indians who maintain or return to Indian culture as somehow morally superior. Marvel has never made a similar statement for even one Jewish character. I am curious about the reason. In Massachussetts, I met several totally assimilated American Indians who would never have considered returning to their roots. Such an American Indian has never appeared in Marvel comics. Actually in my letter I did not say a Jew should not consider marrying a non-Jew. I happen to believe that but I emphasized the casualness of the relationships. >The point is, he has opinions, to which he is certainly >entitled. I happen not to share those opinions. I have a >somewhat brighter view of the human race, one which says that >people all over are pretty much the same, with similar >fears and goals, and not at all >easily pushed into pigeonholes because of their >racial, religous, or ethnic backgrounds. >This is based on my own experiences. I believe the same but I also believe that cultural diversity in one of the nice characteristics of this planet. Marvel seems to hold similarly in the case of American Indian, Japanese, or Vietnamese culture but not in the case of Jewish culture. For this reason I wrote my letter to Marvel. >For the record, my own background is Italian Catholic, >third generation American. I have traveled in the USA >and Europe, met people from around the world while at >Cornell and the University of Rochester, and found >many of my own prejudices demolished over the years >by facts. For the record I am half-Spanish/half-Arab Jewish. I will confess that I have some difficulties with prejudice toward people of European and Muslim background. I generally like East Asians. In view of Jewish history, my preferences seem fairly rational though I try not to let them affect my personal relations. My family lived in Israel at a time when unless you were East European, Socialist and anti-Jewish religion, you were dirt. Since my family is Middle Eastern, anti-Socialist, and rather traditional, we had a lot of problems. I have some residual contempt for European Jews. >I hope this will stimulate discussion. >I also hope the discussion will be of the form >"I agree with so-and-so (or disagree with so-and-so) >for the following reasons.", and "I think so-and-so >misinterpreted what so-and-so saids", and "So-and-so's >arguments don't hold water, because..." and so on, >and not "He's wrong, I7m right, that's it." -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals can believe them)
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (04/11/84)
[] I think that Mr. Martillo's "residual contempt for European Jews" is more of a problem/issue than alleged antisemitism in Marvel Comics. The old T.V. show "Bridget Loves Bernie" was a poor take-off of "Abie's Irish Rose". I don't think either are worth discussing anymore. To paraphrase my grandmother, this whole comic book debate is "hocking meir mitt chinik"; that is, talking about China, or something equally irrelevant. To be fair to any Chinese people reading this, most 19th century Jews had little contact or knowledge about China, it was a place far away. The expression was not a put-down of the Chinese, just as comic book characters are not put downs of racial/ethnic groups, just one form, albeit low, of entertainment. One last note, I wish I had time to post hundred line articles. It is getting tedious to read hundreds of lines about Marvel Comics, and probably quite expensive too. Ashkenazic & Proud, David Seth Green Bell Labs ..mhuxi!dsg P.S. I don't mean to offend comic book readers, but this debate is being carried in net.religion.jewish, I don't think it really belongs there.
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (04/11/84)
> Did many Non-Jews understand why "Bridgette Loves Bernie," (A CBS > television program) was offensive to the Jewish community? Many Jews > seem not to understand what is offensive to the Jewish community. --- Y. S. Martillo ...but apparently you do. Thank you for, so often, telling other people what their opinions are (or should be). It is a good thing that someone with your unbiased and balanced point of view performs this worthwhile service. -- "Submitted for your approval..." Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
wjb@burl.UUCP (Bill Buie) (04/11/84)
-- >>I was simply curious about Non-Jewish opinion on Marvel's treatment of >>ethnic groups. So far I have not seen any replies from members of the >>ethnic groups which Marvel seems to have targeted. A lot of Italians do >>appear in Marvel comics but I have not seen any particular Italian >>cultural issues featured in any Marvel magazines. >>I did not expect Non-Jews to understand exactly what a Jew might find >>offensive. I often do not understand why Blacks find certain books like >>Huckleberry Finn offensive but I tend to accept their statement that the >>books are offensive. I am Black. I consider myself to be neither "mainstream" Black (meaning that my sense of identity is neither overwhelmingly tied to the color of my skin nor to sense of identity somebody else Black may feel) nor like the Blacks I see portrayed in Marvel Comics. It is my observation that most of the "ethnic" qualities I find in Marvel Blacks are not much like the ethnic qualities in Blacks I've known. Does that qualify me to answer Martillo's (sp?) question? I suppose that I am more like the assimilated Jews than the (I don't know what to call them, but I refer to the group of Jews who are not assimilated and feel like Martillo), but here goes. I was offended by the treatment of Blacks in Huckleberry Finn because 1) It was a very serious piece of literature and 2) I was going to school with a lot of white kids who had (like, obviously) never had any direct contact with any "real" Black person in their lives (it was a private school -- a lot of them had lived sheltered lives). These kids behaved and talked like they thought that stereotypes they had been fed were what Blacks were supposed to be like (talk about ignorant!). I didn't get along with those kids really well. I have less a reaction now that I have a little more maturity and experience behind me. I don't think Marvel deserves such a reaction from me because, despite all claims, it is not on a par with Hucklebaerry Finn when it comes to being taken very seriously by a substantial number of people. I accept the fact that Marvel, being predominantly white, is not going to portray my ethnic group from my perspective. I also recognize that even if John Romita was editor-in-chief they probably wouldn't portray my ethnic group from my perspective. People are so different that it is effectively impossible for any individual or group of individual to come up with any definitive statement about the behaviuor of such a large group of people and be accurate. This is why I think that Martillo is way out of line in thinking that he or anybody else is in a position to decree the behaviour of the definitive Jew. That's most especially true when apparently most people who claim to be Jews agree to the common treatment. Incidentally, I also agree that it would be enforcing a stereotype to have problems between Kitty and Peter. Although inter-racial relationships are rare, I have no particular objection to Misty (?) and Danny Rand, or Deathlock and his former wife. I think it is quite possible to object to something in Marvel, just not enough to justify what Martillo wrote to Marvel or posted to the net. For example, I do object to the portrayel of Christianity in Marvel. But I recognize that most of the people there probably don't know what the Bible says about the morality of many of their characters, and therefore could not intelligently be expected to write as if they did. I don't flame Marvel for it, I've just restricted my buying (approaching nil, now), reading net reviews (almost as good as the comics, and cheaper), and studying the Bible with my neighbors. One on one interaction is the solution to stuff like this, I think, not the the approach taken up by Martillo. -- --Bill Buie
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/11/84)
[] >I think that Mr. Martillo's "residual contempt for European Jews" is more >of a problem/issue than alleged antisemitism in Marvel Comics. The old >T.V. show "Bridget Loves Bernie" was a poor take-off of "Abie's Irish >Rose". I don't think either are worth discussing anymore. To paraphrase >my grandmother, this whole comic book debate is "hocking meir mitt chinik"; >that is, talking about China, or something equally irrelevant. To be fair >to any Chinese people reading this, most 19th century Jews had little contact >or knowledge about China, it was a place far away. The expression was not >a put-down of the Chinese, just as comic book characters are not put downs >of racial/ethnic groups, just one form, albeit low, of entertainment. The treatment Spanish/Oriental Jews received in Israel is the issue, not my personal feelings. Until my family came to Israel, we did not even know there was a difference between Ashkenazim and Sefardim. Among my people, I am an Ashkenazophile. I did not accuse Marvel of antisemitism but rather of ignorant insensitivity. I see your pride in being Ashkenazic does not include producing proper translations of Yiddish (unless you are joking). Many Jewish organizations monitor the portrayal of Jews in the media. Black organizations and Arab Christian and Arab Muslim organizations also monitor the media. Comic books may be a low form of entertainment but a lot of people read them especially children. The American Congress held hearings on comic books during the fifties. Der Spiegel about three years ago produced a major cover story on the importance of comic books in American culture. >One last note, I wish I had time to post hundred line articles. It is >getting tedious to read hundreds of lines about Marvel Comics, and probably >quite expensive too. You can always type n to your readnews program. Only one copy of these articles exist on the disc. They simply contain pointers to two newsgroups. >Ashkenazic & Proud, >David Seth Green Bell Labs ..mhuxi!dsg >P.S. I don't mean to offend comic book readers, but this debate is being >carried in net.religion.jewish, I don't think it really belongs there. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals can believe them)
chb@vaxine.UUCP (Kool Klezmer) (04/11/84)
>> If I were to write a comic book about >>Blacks, I would try at the very least consult with some knowledgeable >>Blacks in order to get the facts right. Thereby I might avoid offending >>the Black community. -- The above comment from Mr. Martillo about says it all. Mr. Martillo, I wonder, WHAT IS A KNOWLEDGEABLE Black?!? Is it a Black man who you have defined (according to your terms) to be "intelligent"? Is it a Black man who is knowledgeable about "the Black Experience" (isn't that tautological?) Do you imply that whoever you have deemed to be "knowledgeable" therefore will be assured of not offending EVERYBODY in that ethnic pigeon-hole you have created? It seems that Mr. Martillo has problems seeing the individual as opposed to the ethnic label he has attached to them. I might add that his labels are (to put it politely) out-of-date, or (not-so-mildly) racist. Charlie "Another Ignorant Assimilated Ashkenazi Type" Berg ...allegra!linus!vaxine!chb
ariels@mako.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (04/11/84)
Considering the fact that DC (the other major comic company) is so much more vanilla than Marvel, I think that Marvel has a pretty good selection of non-WASP male heros and characters. In fact, the latest Moon Knight story was pretty impressive, as comic book stories go. Someone had actually done some research, and even Marc, hardened mercenary that he is, came out with a new repect for his father the rabbi's way of life. As to Marvel treating Jews different than they treat Blacks, Orientals, Native Americans, Hispanics, etc, I don't believe it. As far as I can see, they are watering down all ethnic groups equally. Look at Misty Night and Danny (whatever Iron Fist's last name is). They never get any trouble because she's black and he's white. It never seems to cause internal trouble either. While I'm not saying that this kind of relationship can't, shouldn't, and doesn't happen, it's rarely as easy as the comic book would have you imagine. Just about all American characters are treated as part of the mainstream. To treat them otherwise is to lay the company open to charges of stereotyping. From your letter, it seems that you want Jews in comic books to represent the minority of Jews in America. Personally, I'd rather Marvel stick to what they know, mainly the people of all ethnic types who have assimilated to some degree or another, than try to represent the extremes of behaviour within any ethnic group. I find the latter method of placating a certain group very patronizing. And the Israeli and Arab super heroes being teamed up (not by choice, either). It's obvious that Marvel did that to add an extra element of conflict in the story. If you read Secret Bores (oops, I mean Wars), you'll see the same sort of trouble making. (Magneto stuck in with the good guys, etc.) I definitely think that bringing the ADL into this thing is a stupid waste of time. There is enough true anti-semitism around (vandalism of synagogues and graveyards, for starters), and the ADL's resources would be better spent fighting this than going after a comics company that is trying to sell comic books to everyone and still be ethnically "fair", (read, vanilla). BUT, on top of everything else, IT'S ONLY A COMIC BOOK!! comic books do NOT form the opinions of today's youth nearly as much as TV does. Besides, contrary to popular belief, most readers of comics are not kids, but teenagers and adults, whose impressions of ethnic groups as a whole and of individual members of their own and other groups have already been formed. I suppose I'd better give my qualifications to speak. I am Jewish, with a traditional background. I am assimilated to the point that I don't spend my time studying Talmud, and that I care what happens in this world beyond how it affects the Jews. Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/11/84)
>> Did many Non-Jews understand why "Bridgette Loves Bernie," (A CBS >> television program) was offensive to the Jewish community? Many Jews >> seem not to understand what is offensive to the Jewish community. > --- Y. S. Martillo >...but apparently you do. Thank you for, so often, telling other >people what their opinions are (or should be). It is a good thing that >someone with your unbiased and balanced point of view performs this >worthwhile service. You are welcome. You did not quote me completely, but I will give a simple definition of what Jews should consider offensive. Jews should find offensive the demand or the suggestion that the Jewish community or Jewish culture should pass out of existence. This has been the demand or suggestion of many who have been hostile to the Jewish people for the last 2600 years. Is this acceptable to irreligious Jews? I feel Marvel is making this suggestion. Opinions? -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (Some ideas are so stupid only intellectuals can believe them)
zev@hou2a.UUCP (Z.FARKAS) (04/11/84)
For those who are interested, the phrase Mr. Green seemed to have been trying to use in his reply to Mr. Martillo was probably Hock meir nit kein cheinik which is Yiddish (loose translation) for Don't bang a teapot Hock means bang, cheinik means teapot. The meaning is obvious to anyone who has been in the same house with a small child who has gotten hold of a teapot and something to bang it with. Chag Kasher V'sameach (May you have a kosher and happy holiday) Zev Farkas hou2a!zev 201 949 3821
brad@umcp-cs.UUCP (04/12/84)
I've been following this discussion with great interest. I really
don't have much to add except that I agree with Oz, Ciaraldi and
Moriarity.
If no one else volunteers, I am willing to resend the
discussion to Mark Gruenwald at Marvel. Any objections?
b**2
Brad Balfour
ARPA brad@maryland
CSNET brad@umcp-cs
UUCP {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!bradtrb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (04/12/84)
First, I hereby salute the contribution of Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo to this group. He brings an educated, unique, heartfelt, interesting opinion to net.religion.jewish. Not surprisingly, many folks are taking shots at his views, and I find that interesting: It seems that Martillo DISCRIMINATES between people of certain religions, certain nationalities, certain backgrounds. Some of us white boys seem to have problems with this notion. Here in America, we do not discriminate, it's not nice. All men are created equal. NO NO NO! People who have this point of view have been living life as a spectator sport. I feel that they're missing a point. In reply to Martillo's expression of his disdain for Germans, Hispanics, Persians, Greeks, and Russians (because of their oppression of the Jews), qubix!steven states: > I am only glad that almost all jews are not as predijuced and bigoted > as you have just shown yourself to be. How can you believe that > simply because Pytor Rasputin is a russian, he has any control of his > general society?? You seem amazingly willing to condemn someone (even > a comic book character) just on the basis of national origin. I > shudder to think what you think of people who happen to be born with > Hispanic skin tone...... (I shudder to think what kind of skin tone qubix!steven thinks Martillo has.) Let's say Martillo has a reason for hating these groups. Yea, it takes a good reason, but let's say he does. In Munchkinland, we drop a house on one bad witch, we pee on the other one, and then everybody just lives happily ever after. Come on! Not everybody grew up in Middle America where everybody's the same. Not everyone has to abide by "turn the other cheek" and "everybody get together try to love one another right now." In this world, there ARE reasons for hating various groups of people. Due to the rather unselective pruning that they did to my family, I'm not particularly fond of Nazis. All the groups that Martillo mentioned played Nazi at one time or another. That's Martillo's point, and I think it's a valid one. Look at qubix!steven's first sentence again, he calls Martillo prejudiced and bigoted. It's time for an English lesson. Prejudiced means "PRECONCEIVED judgements or opinions." Preconceived. Bigot means "one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions or prejudices." I don't think that Martillo is prejudiced; he has reasons for his beliefs which I consider valid. I don't think he's bigoted because I don't find him obstinate or intolerant. He expresses his strong views in a strong way, but that doesn't mean that he isn't listening or that he doesn't understand other points of view. Part of having some integrity in this life means hating people who (for instance) represent opression. If you roll out your red carpet to those people and serve them dinner on your good china, then I don't have very much respect for you. I don't agree with everything Martillo says, sometimes I don't LIKE his opinions, but I respect them, because he's given me evidence that he's come to his opinions with great effort and study, and WITHOUT prejudice. I'm also glad that he has the guts and integrity to share his opinions in a public forum where he knows well that people will take shots at him as an easy and popular target. Now, a summary, for the thinking impaired: I think some people out there have a problem with Martillo expressing hatred for a group. They think that it's a "bad thing" because proponents of "minority groups" told us so. I'm saying that hatred is sometimes the right thing, even though it's easy enough to take pot shots at someone for. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (04/12/84)
AARGH!!! to "hok a chainik" is to BANG A TEAKETTLE! "Hoking mir mit chinik" means DON'T BANG MY TEAKETTLE!!! Neither expression has ANYTHING to do with China. To "bang a tea kettle" means to talk a great deal, yammer on, or talk nonsense, and "don't bang my tea kettle" means "don't bother me with your silly talk". Source: My own experience with Yiddish, and Leo Rosten's "The Joys Of Yiddish" Ariel (Yiddish may be vulgar, but its FUN) Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels
chb@vaxine.UUCP (Kool Klezmer) (04/12/84)
<> Mr. Martillo, your longish reply to to Mr. Cicaraldi deserves as much praise as your initial article deserves abuse. If you had presented your case as even-handedly and as honestly as it was in this reply, my response would have been a serious consideration of what you were "tryin' to pull my coat to", rather than the anger and outrage your initial article drew from me. I can tolerate someone saying " these are the view's I hold, even though I recognize they may be prejudiced", versus stating those thoughts as fact without any admission to their (possibly) offensiveness. One aside. You said that the term "Judio" is derogatory in Castillian Spanish. Do you know if the same is true in American Spanish? Larry Harlow, a well know salsa pianst is known as "el Judio magnifioso", which I wouldn't have thought derogatory (he's well like and respected). Of course, I also know that colloquialisms in Spanish vary from country to country, so one's man fish is another man's poison, as they say. Charlie Berg a.k.a. Kool Klezmer ...allegra!linus!vaxine!chb
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (04/13/84)
My last name is Brower (German). Does this mean that that prejudiced
person of Jewish ancestry hates me because of that fact of my ancestry.
By the way, my dictionary defines prejudice as:
1. A preconcieved, usually unfavorable, idea
2. an opinion held in disregard of facts that contridict it; bias
3. intolerance or hatred of other races, etc.
4. injury or harm
Some people manage to expand prejudice to include members of their own
race who do not think or act in some "correct" manner.
I realize that this has nothing to do with Marvel Comix. But unthinking
prejudice gets my dander up.
Richard Brower Fortune Systems
{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower