martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/12/84)
>Clearly Mr. Martillo is as judaeocentric as many of the Christian >fundamentalists (some of whom submit to net.religion) are christocentric. Westernized Jews typically know nothing about Judaism but are somewhat knowledgeable about European culture. They call this Eurocentrism cosmopolitanism. If a Jew knows something about Judaism and states opinions based on the knowledge, he is Judeocentric no matter how much he knows about European and (in my case) non-European cultures. >No, I take it back. He's much more so, as evidenced by his ridicule and >disdain for all those who would choose to be different from him. I generally only ridicule Jews who are complacent in their assimilation. >Although I suspect some Christian fundamentalists to harbor similar >disdain, I have no reason to assume that because it never evinces itself >in a public forum. Mr. Martillo is quite open about his dislike (even >hatred) for Ashkenazim (or anyone who holds a different view about what 'real' >Judaism is), non-religious Jews (or any Jewish born person who chooses to >make his/her own choices in life as opposed to *his* [Martillo's] idea of what >choices "must" be made), and just about every ethnic group in the known >world (I have yet to hear him say anything other than derisive remarks about >any group of people. I have no desire to discuss once again the Sefardi/Ashkenazi issue. But having contempt for the behavior of assimilated Ashkenazim has no relation to being Sefardi. I suggest Mr. Rosen read Marx (who specifically exempts der Schabbos-Jude from his diatribes). Marx based his critique on his own assimilated family. I have not met non-religious Jews who have truly made choices. Making choices requires information. All the non-religious Jews I have met had parents with little Jewish training who decided not to send their children to a school which could give them a good Jewish background. After reaching Mr. Rosen's age learning how to learn is extremely difficult and most Jewishly ignorant Jews prefer to be complacent. It might interest Mr. Rosen to learn that being an observant Jew does not require faith. Medieval Hebrew (the Middle Ages ended for my family around 1945) has no word for Jewish religion and medieval Jews were not aware they were practising a religion. The faith part of Judaism is yichud or monotheism which is the belief in the existence of the one God. What Ashkenazim consider religion is simply the laws by which the Jewish community lived. If a Jew does not believe in God but still observes Jewish law and does not disclose his non-belief, he is kasher. I did not dump on every ethnic group in the world merely the ones which have dumped on Jews. Most of the peoples in the world have never heard of Jews, have had no contact with Jews, and would have no inclination to dump on Jews. However, the groups that have recently dumped on Jews include most of the European ethnic groups. Mr. Rosen shows his eurocentrism by claiming I have dumped on all the ethnic groups of the world. >Mind you, he has said some interesting things in various newsgroups, >presenting a unique non-Western-oriented point of view, but this does >not compensate for his vitriolic spouting of venom. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (I don't care what you think about my signature)
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (04/13/84)
> I have not met non-religious Jews who have truly made > choices. Making choices requires information. All the non-religious > Jews I have met had parents with little Jewish training who decided not to > send their children to a school which could give them a good Jewish > background. After reaching Mr. Rosen's age learning how to learn is > extremely difficult and most Jewishly ignorant Jews prefer to be > complacent. I wonder what Mr. Martillo means when he refers to "a good Jewish background". Does it mean years of extensive yeshiva education? (No, of course not, that's Ashkenazi learning!) My "minute" share of Jewish education convinced me of the folly of religion in general, and I felt no need to be observant, as it had no relevance to my life. These are the choices of this non-religious Jew, based on his information. If this is your version of complacence, so be it. I guess that the only avenue you would consider non-complacent is the path you have chosen. Speaking of information and choices, what information could you have about other choices if you devoted so much to Jewish learning. Perhaps it would have been nice, to broaden your horizons, if your parents had sent you to a Muslim school to learn about some other people. But, no, then you'd only learn to hate Jews... :-? Apparently, in your learning, other hatreds are taught. > It might interest Mr. Rosen to learn that being an observant Jew does not > require faith. Medieval Hebrew (the Middle Ages ended for my family > around 1945) has no word for Jewish religion and medieval Jews were not > aware they were practising a religion. The faith part of Judaism is > yichud or monotheism which is the belief in the existence of the one God. > What Ashkenazim consider religion is simply the laws by which the Jewish > community lived. If a Jew does not believe in God but still observes > Jewish law and does not disclose his non-belief, he is kasher. So you're saying that Jewish belief in God (religion) and Jewish practices (observance) are disjoint. Thus, this is clearly not a religious issue at all, but a cultural one. (I always said if we were going to have this group let's call it net.roots.jewish) The only reason I could see for following Jewish law is as a path to god. Since I don't believe in god, I see no purpose (for me) in it. As I've already said, my rights as an individual should not be interfered with by those who would say "You're Jewish, it's your duty to preserve the religion." One might say "study it some, you might find it interesting". I have found it interesting, even fascinating, but I don't choose to incorporate everything I find fascinating into my daily lifestyle. > I did not dump on every ethnic group in the world merely the ones which > have dumped on Jews. However, the groups that have recently dumped on Jews > include most of the European ethnic groups. Mr. Rosen shows his > eurocentrism by claiming I have dumped on all the ethnic groups of the > world. Yes, an exaggeration, my apologies. I guess you were not exaggerating when you claimed that degrading of Jews was a part of Muslim culture. Despite what the eloquent Mr. Tannenbaum has said, defaming an entire group, even if based on experience (*your* experience), is out and out bigotry. By the way, since when are the Muslims a "European ethnic group"? How Afrasiocentric of you to have forgotten that you mentioned them... -- "Submitted for your approval..." Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/13/84)
>> I have not met non-religious Jews who have truly made >> choices. Making choices requires information. All the non-religious >> Jews I have met had parents with little Jewish training who decided not to >> send their children to a school which could give them a good Jewish >> background. After reaching Mr. Rosen's age learning how to learn is >> extremely difficult and most Jewishly ignorant Jews prefer to be >> complacent. >I wonder what Mr. Martillo means when he refers to "a good Jewish background". >Does it mean years of extensive yeshiva education? (No, of course not, that's >Ashkenazi learning!) My "minute" share of Jewish education convinced me of >the folly of religion in general, and I felt no need to be observant, as it had >no relevance to my life. These are the choices of this non-religious Jew, >based on his information. If this is your version of complacence, so be it. >I guess that the only avenue you would consider non-complacent is the path >you have chosen. The Ashkenazi system of learning is a late development and combination of Iraqi and Spanish systems of learning. I am a bit stunned. Do you think Sefardim do not have Yeshivot. The Hakam Tsvi Ashkenazi who was Ashkenazi from Yugoslavia (not the name in his day) studied at the famous Yeshiva in Saloniki and later became chief Sefardi Rabbi of the Netherlands. This Yeshiva was probably still the best in Europe until the Germans wiped it out. Jacob Culi, the author of Meam Loez was a teacher in this Yeshiva. >Speaking of information and choices, what information could you have about >other choices if you devoted so much to Jewish learning. Perhaps it would >have been nice, to broaden your horizons, if your parents had sent you to >a Muslim school to learn about some other people. But, no, then you'd only >learn to hate Jews... :-? Apparently, in your learning, other hatreds are >taught. Actually, I have studied with Muslim scholars. I suggest you read "Farewell, Babylon by Naim Kattan" and find out what happens to Jews who study at Koran Schools or Madrasat. Goldziher, who studied at al-Ajar, was an exception, and I suspect the Muslims did not know he was Jewish. My family was influenced by the dor hadeah movement, which requires deep study of Judeo-Arabic works. This means really understanding all of Maimonides in the original. Maimonides admits his intellectual debt to Alfarabi. Lots of areas of Muslim learning like the Kalam and Jurisprudence are relevant to limudei torah. I am trying to learn these fields although without detracting from my Jewish learning. >> It might interest Mr. Rosen to learn that being an observant Jew does not >> require faith. Medieval Hebrew (the Middle Ages ended for my family >> around 1945) has no word for Jewish religion and medieval Jews were not >> aware they were practising a religion. The faith part of Judaism is >> yichud or monotheism which is the belief in the existence of the one God. >> What Ashkenazim consider religion is simply the laws by which the Jewish >> community lived. If a Jew does not believe in God but still observes >> Jewish law and does not disclose his non-belief, he is kasher. >So you're saying that Jewish belief in God (religion) and Jewish practices >(observance) are disjoint. Thus, this is clearly not a religious issue at >all, but a cultural one. (I always said if we were going to have this >group let's call it net.roots.jewish) The only reason I could see for >following Jewish law is as a path to god. Since I don't believe in god, >I see no purpose (for me) in it. As I've already said, my rights as an >individual should not be interfered with by those who would say "You're >Jewish, it's your duty to preserve the religion." One might say "study it >some, you might find it interesting". I have found it interesting, even >fascinating, but I don't choose to incorporate everything I find fascinating >into my daily lifestyle. I do not like the presence of the word religion in net.religion.jewish. net.jewish would be preferable. Religion has too many irrelevant Christian connotations. The sages meticulously developed Jewish law because God requires community service. Such service is facilitated by having the best possible society. In general the Jewish community was more productive and less violent than the surrounding non-Jewish community. Family life seems to have been stronger. Another reason to follow Jewish law is the social structures produced are better. Are you able to learn a daf gemarah (out of curiosity)? You may reply by private mail. >> I did not dump on every ethnic group in the world merely the ones which >> have dumped on Jews. However, the groups that have recently dumped on Jews >> include most of the European ethnic groups. Mr. Rosen shows his >> eurocentrism by claiming I have dumped on all the ethnic groups of the >> world. >Yes, an exaggeration, my apologies. I guess you were not exaggerating when >you claimed that degrading of Jews was a part of Muslim culture. Despite >what the eloquent Mr. Tannenbaum has said, defaming an entire group, even >if based on experience (*your* experience), is out and out bigotry. By the >way, since when are the Muslims a "European ethnic group"? How Afrasiocentric >of you to have forgotten that you mentioned them... My family has many Muslim friends but individual exceptions should not prevent generalization. How can judgements be made otherwise? I did not exclude non-European Muslims if you read my statement above closely. By the way, in the Balkans where my father spent most of his life the Muslims are a European ethnic group. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (I don't care what you think about my signature)