amigo@iwlc6.UUCP (John Hobson) (04/13/84)
I am writing this mainly in response to Andy Tannenbaum's defense of Y. S. Martillo. It certainly is true that, as Andy put it: "He expresses his strong views in a strong way." And it is also true that "...some people out there have a problem with Martillo expressing hatred for a group." I have trouble with this, and it's not just because I "think that it's a `bad thing' because proponents of `minority groups' told [me] so." I get the definite impression that he hates Germans, Russians, Poles, Greeks, Muslims, Christians, Nazis, Jewish women who marry Goyim (hi, Mom), and is not too fond of assimilated Jews and Ashkenazim. (He describes himself as being somewhat pro-Ashkenazi for a Sephardi. I would hate to see some of the anti-Ashkenazi ones.) I am still bristling from the time over a month ago when he called my grandfather "low, common, vulgar, and ignorant" purely and simply because he (my grandfather) was an assimilated Austrian Jew. When I asked him to elaborate, he explained why he felt that way, but apparently it never occurred to him to apologize. Martillo seems to be most proud of his Sephardic background. And well he should be. We all should be. I certainly am proud of my forebears, including my grandfather. But Martillo seems to look down on all non-Sephardis. He said "I am unimpressed by Ashenazic yihus (ancestry)", but when he mentioned his grandfather, he made sure to give him his title of "Hakim." Like, Andy, I too hate the Nazis for the "rather unselective pruning that they did to my family", including my aforementioned grandfather, but I do not hate all Germans. Yes, many, even most Germans, have been anti-Semites, but I do not have an a priori hatred of them because of it. When Martillo mentioned his objections to the love affair between Marvel Comics Kitty Pryde and Pyotr Rasputin, there seemed to be an underlying assumption that all Russians are anti-Semitic. One of the reasons that this world is in the state that it is in is that far too many people despise other groups as being (to use a good old Nazi term) "Untermenschen." Remember that song by (I think, someone will undoubtedly correct me if I am wrong) Tom Lehrer, "The Merry Minuet": This whole world is festering with unhappy souls. The French hate the Germans, The Germans hate the Poles. Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch. And I don't like anybody very much! But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud, For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud. And we know for certain that one lovely day, Someone will set the spark off, And we will all be blown away. Maybe Andy is right, and there are legitimate reasons for hating other people, but whole nationalities simply because the persons in that country are members of that nationality? I'm sorry, this does not really convey what I want to say very well, but I will send it off and think about it for a while. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!iwlc6!amigo
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/13/84)
>I am writing this mainly in response to Andy Tannenbaum's defense >of Y. S. Martillo. It certainly is true that, as Andy put it: "He >expresses his strong views in a strong way." And it is also true >that "...some people out there have a problem with Martillo >expressing hatred for a group." I have trouble with this, and it's >not just because I "think that it's a `bad thing' because proponents >of `minority groups' told [me] so." >I get the definite impression that he hates Germans, Russians, >Poles, Greeks, Muslims, Christians, Nazis, Jewish women who marry >Goyim (hi, Mom), and is not too fond of assimilated Jews and >Ashkenazim. (He describes himself as being somewhat pro-Ashkenazi >for a Sephardi. I would hate to see some of the anti-Ashkenazi >ones.) I am still bristling from the time over a month ago when he >called my grandfather "low, common, vulgar, and ignorant" purely >and simply because he (my grandfather) was an assimilated Austrian >Jew. When I asked him to elaborate, he explained why he felt that >way, but apparently it never occurred to him to apologize. You stated your request for an apology in such a way that to apologize would have given approval for the behavior or your immediate Jewish family. Judaism would be a wimp religion if it did not set up standards for Jews and then strictly condemn those who violate those standards. I am willing to apologize for low, common and vulgar. Your own description of your grandfather implied Jewishly ignorant. Therefore, I will change ignorant to having severe gaps in knowledge. The "der Stuermer" was also quite rude. I can document all my charges against Islamic Jurisprudence including cliterodectomies and probably will in reply to one of Tim Bray's articles. I made no charges considering infibulation since my readings indicate infibulation has no basis in fiqh but is merely local custom. As for disliking Muslims, I follow a simple principle. I determine what the culture permits. I determine what the culture permits by looking at the legal record. Since Islam has very detail legal codes (four orthodox, seven partisan legal schools), such a procedure is very easy. Where my family lived, there was an Islamic practice which amounted to kidnapping-rape for adolescent non-Muslim girls. The Turks who used a much more lenient legal system used the same legal principle to seize children from Balkan Christian communities for the jannisaries. I would be much more lenient in my opinions of Muslims if important Muslims somewhere would admit that treatment of ahl addimma was less than ideal. Some evidence of Muslim willingness somewhere (there are still large non-Muslim communities living in Muslim countries) to live on terms of equality and mutual respect with non-Muslims would be helpful. Until then letters like your "der Stuermer" letter which from your perspective are equivalent to confusing Jews and Nazis will provoke slightly irrational reactions. >Martillo seems to be most proud of his Sephardic background. And >well he should be. We all should be. I certainly am proud of my >forebears, including my grandfather. But Martillo seems to look >down on all non-Sephardis. He said "I am unimpressed by Ashenazic >yihus (ancestry)", but when he mentioned his grandfather, he made >sure to give him his title of "Hakim." The title is hakam. Actually, my grandfather was a dayan. Hakam is the least way I can describe my grandfather without then insulting him. >Like, Andy, I too hate the Nazis for the "rather unselective >pruning that they did to my family", including my aforementioned >grandfather, but I do not hate all Germans. Yes, many, even most >Germans, have been anti-Semites, but I do not have an a priori >hatred of them because of it. When Martillo mentioned his >objections to the love affair between Marvel Comics Kitty Pryde and >Pyotr Rasputin, there seemed to be an underlying assumption that >all Russians are anti-Semitic. I am not sure that most Germans have been antisemites. I think most Germans who have lived never met a Jew, and probably suffered from a theological anti-Semitism which probably would have vanished upon meeting a Jew. Heine wrote about this fact in one of his minor works. He also made a comment about what would happen if too many Jews moved into the area. >One of the reasons that this world is in the state that it is in is >that far too many people despise other groups as being (to use a >good old Nazi term) "Untermenschen." Remember that song by (I >think, someone will undoubtedly correct me if I am wrong) Tom >Lehrer, "The Merry Minuet": > This whole world is festering with unhappy souls. > The French hate the Germans, > The Germans hate the Poles. > Italians hate Yugoslavs, > South Africans hate the Dutch. > And I don't like anybody very much! > But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud, > For man's been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud. > And we know for certain that one lovely day, > Someone will set the spark off, > And we will all be blown away. >Maybe Andy is right, and there are legitimate reasons for hating >other people, but whole nationalities simply because the persons in >that country are members of that nationality? Honesty is more important. Lessing as a friend of Moses Mendelson wrote a play called Natan der Weise. Natan (based on Mendelson) was supposed to represent what the Jews would become if restrictions upon Jews were lifted. Essentially Jews would give up all their disgusting Jewish characteristics and become decent Europeans. This is hatred masquerading as love. Perhaps, liberal Germans should have been more honest about their feelings for the next 150 years. At best the hatred might have worked itself out rather than exploding. At worst the Jews would not have deluded themselves about the coming holocaust and might have been quicker to leave. Peace is only made between enemies. Pretending love when their is none is dangerous. >I'm sorry, this does not really convey what I want to say very >well, but I will send it off and think about it for a while. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (I don't care what you think about my signature)
amigo@iwlc6.UUCP (John Hobson) (04/13/84)
[>> is Hobson, > is Martillo] >>I get the definite impression that he hates Germans, Russians, >>Poles, Greeks, Muslims, Christians, Nazis, Jewish women who marry >>Goyim (hi, Mom), and is not too fond of assimilated Jews and >>Ashkenazim. (He describes himself as being somewhat pro-Ashkenazi >>for a Sephardi. I would hate to see some of the anti-Ashkenazi >>ones.) I am still bristling from the time over a month ago when he >>called my grandfather "low, common, vulgar, and ignorant" purely >>and simply because he (my grandfather) was an assimilated Austrian >>Jew. When I asked him to elaborate, he explained why he felt that >>way, but apparently it never occurred to him to apologize. >You stated your request for an apology in such a way that to apologize >would have given approval for the behavior or your immediate Jewish >family. Judaism would be a wimp religion if it did not set up standards >for Jews and then strictly condemn those who violate those standards. I >am willing to apologize for low, common and vulgar. Your own description >of your grandfather implied Jewishly ignorant. Therefore, I will change >ignorant to having severe gaps in knowledge. My recollection of my letter to you is different, but I will accept the apology given here. However: >Until then letters like your "der Stuermer" letter which from your >perspective are equivalent to confusing Jews and Nazis will >provoke slightly irrational reactions. I do not like having my letter confused with "Der Stuermer" (for those of you who are not familiar with this periodical, it was a pornographic, virulently anti-Semitic, hate sheet published by the Nazi Julius Streicher. Goebbels hated it because of its crudeness, but Streicher had too much of an "in" with Hitler for it to be suppressed.) >>He said "I am unimpressed by Ashenazic yihus (ancestry)", but >>when he mentioned his grandfather, he made sure to give him his >>title of "Hakim." >The title is hakam. Actually, my grandfather was a dayan. Hakam is the >least way I can describe my grandfather without then insulting him. I stand corrected. My point was that he appears to look down on Ashkenazi ancestry while being proud of his Shephardic ancestry. >>Yes, many, even most Germans, have been anti-Semites, but I do >>not have an a priori hatred of them because of it. >I am not sure that most Germans have been antisemites. I think most >Germans who have lived never met a Jew, and probably suffered from a >theological anti-Semitism which probably would have vanished upon meeting >a Jew. All right, I may have exaggerated when I said most (I'm not sure either). >>Maybe Andy is right, and there are legitimate reasons for hating >>other people, but whole nationalities simply because the persons in >>that country are members of that nationality? >Honesty is more important. Lessing as a friend of Moses Mendelson >wrote a play called Natan der Weise. Natan (based on Mendelson) >was supposed to represent what the Jews would become if >restrictions upon Jews were lifted. Essentially Jews would give >up all their disgusting Jewish characteristics and become decent >Europeans. This is hatred masquerading as love. Perhaps, liberal >Germans should have been more honest about their feelings for the >next 150 years. At best the hatred might have worked itself out >rather than exploding. At worst the Jews would not have deluded >themselves about the coming holocaust and might have been quicker >to leave. I'm not sure I completely follow this. Are you saying that if Lessing and the other 19th century Liberal Germans had been really honest, they would have said they really hated Jews? You just said that if Germans actually knew Jews, then their anti-Semitism would vanish. Lessing, being a friend of Mendelson, had evidently met at least one Jew. There seems to be a contradiction here somewhere. >Peace is only made between enemies. Pretending love when their is >none is dangerous. I'm not sure how to answer this. I must consider it further. I do not want to be seen as attacking Mr. Martillo. After all, as Hillel teaches us, "Do not judge your fellow man until you have been in his position" (Pirke Avot 2:5). I do tend to see him as arrogant (and I suppose that it takes one to know one) and rather intemperate in much of what he says. I will try to keep this on a level above that of heedless personal mudslinging, as I see him also trying to do. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL ihnp4!iwlc6!amigo