elb@hou5e.UUCP (05/03/84)
I have been supressing this for about two months but have decided to get it off my chest --- My distinct impression is that Mr Martillo should not be taken as an authority on Sephardi Ashkenazi history, customs, background, etc. Although I admit I am unable to provide specifics (I will try to check my sources if asked), I disagree with nearly everything he says --- not so much that his facts are incorrect because they may be true--- but his interpretation of them and philosophy surrounding them is decidedly warped. I post this mainly as a way of saying HEY NETLAND not everyone (and I almost want to say no one...) agrees with what Mr. Martillo is saying. He presents many things as being true and universally accepted when many are neither. It pains me to see a fellow Jew informing the world of much that is nonsense. Ellen Bart
trb@masscomp.UUCP (05/04/84)
I now have something to get off my chest, I don't like the cheap shots Ellen Bart took at your friend and mine, Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo. She says that he shouldn't be taken as an authority, and I don't recall that anyone claimed he should be. To make such a statement is only to sling mud at him. She then says that she disagrees with him - "not so much ... his facts ... but his interpretation ... and philosophy." Is he not entitled to his opinion? Is he not entitled to share it? Would your rather have him give us your opinion? She says "his interpretation ... and philosophy ... is decidedly warped." Using the passive voice (WHO DECIDED?) is really low class here, she didn't even have the guts to say that she decided. Then she says: I post this mainly as a way of saying HEY NETLAND not everyone (and I almost want to say no one...) agrees with what Mr. Martillo is saying. Ellen, why not just say "I don't agree with what Martillo is saying?" I can respect that. I don't agree with (many of) Martillo's opinions. So what? What if hardly anyone agrees with what he says? What if no one does? Should we have a rule that you have to be seconded before you can present an opinion? I hereby offer a standing second for Martillo. Ellen concludes with: It pains me to see a fellow Jew informing the world of much that is nonsense. Gee, I find that Martillo is quite lucid. Hardly nonsensible. Disagreeable maybe, nonsense, no. It pains me to see a fellow Jew taking unsubstantiated shots at another. Ellen, if you want me to believe that much of what Martillo says is nonsense, then show us that with lucid examples. I'll say this for the second time in 24 hours (see my note in net.motss): when one person calls another person an asshole, that is the act and responsibility of the caller, not the callee. Ellen, the burden of proof is on you, and you've already lost points in my book for having taken shots at Martillo without evidence in hand. I'd prefer to see discussion of Jewish issues in this group, but I find that people taking potshots at Martillo is far more offensive that people making fun of gays or women or Jews in general. (Certainly far more offensive than Martillo's odd viewpoint.) For one thing, Martillo is an individual, and second, people with common sense in today's society know that it's a "bad thing" to belittle women or gays or other popular minorities. On the other hand, it seems to be ok to sling mud at people you disagree with, especially if you're in the company of people who share your viewpoint. Feh. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (05/04/84)
[any golems or dybbuks eating this line???]
"In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice
that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.
"Whenever you feel like criticizing any one," he told me, "just
remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that
you've had.""
from "The Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald
Copyright, 1925, by Charles Scribner's Sons:
Renewal Copyright, 1953, by Frances Scott Fitzgerald Lanahan
When I started reading some of Mr. Martillo's postings, I got quite annoyed
at a number of the things he said, and the way he said them. One of my
*biggest* concerns was "what will the goyim think?". The truth of the
matter is that it doesn't matter what the goyim think; once I was able
to get that through my thick skull Mr. Martillo's postings started to make
more sense and I've enjoyed almost all of them. From what I understand
from other people, Sephardim are not treated all that well in Israel ( that
is an understatement ). In New York/Brooklyn/Queens/Long Island/ the
Syrians *are* goofed on here and there ( take Crazy Eddie...Please! )
My Grandmother, who is now over 90 ( conna hurra ( I know the spelling
is wrong)), was born in Eastern Europe and likes our American "culture"
better than what she remembers "in the old country". Absence makes the
heart grow fonder, but shtetls and pogroms weren't much fun. Ashkenazim
is not that great, although some of my best friends are Ashkenazic, including
myself. Mr. Martillo may be pointing out some not-so-pleasent facts about my
roots, and it is not always heartwarming to read that stuff, but unless
someone can specifically show me where he is wrong, factually, I will
*assume* that what he says is EMMIS.
And now to the point... Someone requested a book list on Jewish traditions,
culture, observences, etc.; I thought that Martillo's list was way out in left
field and not an appropriate answer to the posted request. To be honest,
when I read his list of books, and some of his comments I nearly threw my
terminal out the window. Yes, Martillo can still get my normally low
blood pressure skyrocketing. Well, what was I to do? Trashing my terminal
or posting a flame was not the answer. I went home thought about the books
that I would recommend, refined the list, thought some more and posted it.
I learned something, and now I have a list of books to recommend. I
channeled my energy into something constructive; prompted by Martillo.
Mr. Martillo, keep posting and don't change your style!
The above quote that I started this with is not from the Talmud, but I
think that it is good advice for everyone. Learn from it!
Shabbat Shalom,
David Seth Green Bell Labs path {the usuall machines}..mhuxi!dsg
phone 201-564-2290
(Again, I am responsible for all of the grammar, spelling, translations,
etc., please flame on the *content* not my good English or lack of it.)sher@rochester.UUCP (05/05/84)
While Mr. Martillo is certainly entitled to his opinion, if he or anyone else wants to communicate then the method of expression used seems to be inappropriate. His postings seem unplesantly like someone yelling at the top of his lungs. While some may find this refreshing for the most part I read five lines into the article and give up. The use of heavilly emotional words and phrases makes it very difficult to rationally evaluate the points he is making (which I suspect are reasonably good from his viewpoint). Clear concise messages with a little less emotion would have a much larger audience and thereby achieve more. -David Sher
teitz@aecom.UUCP (05/07/84)
we are now in the period betwwen pesach ( passover ) and shavuot ( pentacost ) known as s'fira. many jews have a custom of accepting upon themselves a period of mourning during this time to commemorate the death of 24,000 students of Rabbi Akiva during the post-Temple period. these students died in a plague and the reason for their death is said to be because they did not treat each other with respect ( i do not remember the exact location of the quote). a question can be asked: surely the jews suffered worse calamities than this why do we accept this mourning ? an answer that i heard from a friend ( rabbi baruch lanner in the name of Rav Yosef Soloveitchik ) is this: the tragedy occured because the students did not treat each other with respect. what does this mean ? because they did not say good morning to each other they were wiped out? no, the reason is that they did not accept the fact that there can be variant opinions in judaism. this does not mean that i have to accept what anyone else says. but as long as he has some basis for his opinion, i cannot attack him for his belief. the second temple was destroyed not because we transgressed against G-D a much as because we transgressed against each other. (again i forgret the qoute) the temple was destroyed because of unwarranted hatred (sinas chinam ). the students of Rabbi Akiva who lived immediately after the temple did not learn this lesson and had to be taught a lesson of their own. let us learn fromtheir tragic mistakes, and on this the 36 anniversary of the independence of Israel let us resolve to bury the hatchet forever. we have differences of opinion. this networkis a forum to air these ideas. however we must use caution not to offend anyone, even if we feel that we arre just in our attacks, because of previous injustices. if we take this lesson to heart, we may yet have the honor and privilege to see the rebuilding of the temple, askenazim and sefaradim together, bimhayra biyamenu ( quickly and in our days ) , amen. hakosayve lichvod hayehudim ( who writes for the honor of all jews), eliyahu teitz.