4341jej@houxa.UUCP (J.JAKUBSON) (04/24/84)
I agree that non-Jews at a Seder is not bad at all. We have
had family friends at Seder for years ( both Jews and non-Jews)
and the resulting exchange of fresh questions and viewpoints
has always been very enlightening.
Joel Jakubson
AT&T Bell Labs
Holmdel, N.J.
...!ihn4p!houxa!4341jejedelson@mhuxi.UUCP (edelson) (04/27/84)
Having a non-Jew at at Seder (especially a Christian) can be a very
enlightening experience as you try to relate the customs to Jewish
beliefs as well as to the roots of Christianity.
There are a number of special Hagaddahs written for this purpose.
We have made it a custom in our family, when we have such a guest,
to present to him a copy of "The Passover Celebration: A Hagaddah for the Seder"
compiled jointly by the ADL and the Archdiocese of Chicago.
This is admittedly a truncated service, but is all in English and
generously annotated for such a teaching purpose. Available, for about $2,
from ADL through your local B'nai B'rith Chapter, or directly from
ADL Book Service in NY.
Probably also available from Catholic Sources; the Publisher is
listed as Catholic Liturgical Press, Chicago.
Dave Edelson
ADL Representative
Tri-County Lodge, B'nai B'rithbarryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (05/01/84)
We've invited non-Jews to our (Reform) Seders. On the other hand, the Bible
specifically states that this feast is not to be shared with the
uncircumcized. This ended up with our deciding not to invite a few friends
from England/Canada.
--
Barry Gold/Lee Gold
usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet: barry@BNLmbr@fortune.UUCP (05/04/84)
#R:teklabs:-282800:fortune:39800012:000:223
fortune!mbr May 3 13:53:00 1984
"This feast is not to be shared with the uncircumcized"?!
Sounds like that would exclude women, in which case, nearly every Seder
I have ever heard of fails the test.
{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!mbrmartillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) (05/04/84)
The passage says kol `arel which means any uncircumcised male. In any case a Jewish woman cannot be a `arelah which is simply another word for non-Jewish woman.
dyer@wivax.UUCP (Stephen Dyer) (05/04/84)
How did you ever discover whether your guests were circumsized or not? Rather bad taste to ask, I'd guess. -- /Steve Dyer decvax!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca
robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (05/07/84)
References: To Bob Brown: (1) You're welcome. (2) Keep a sharp ear tuned for those of your Jewish friends who will express to you the hope that you will drop in uninvited. The Halachic opinion we received leaves some interesting open questions: (1) For the first Seder (or the first night of any chag), most, if not all, of the cooking is done before the chag begins. It seems likely that there is no question of making a special effort to cook for a nonjew, if people follow their usual cooking procedures, especially if they have a custom (as we do) to cook, consistently, an enormous amount of food for the first night, such that there are invariably left-overs. (2) Now that we have a non-jewish guest at the Seder, is the reading of the haggadah valid if this guest participates? What degree of participation might cause raise a doubt as to whether the Jews present had fulfilled the mitzvoth of the first night of Passover? - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
jgf@hou5g.UUCP (05/07/84)
No halachik decision here, but... as Toby Robison says, many people cook lots of food anyway. One reason is for possible Jewish guests so there should be no problem with serving this food to non Jews. Also, what possible reason can there be for a non Jew's presence to *invalidate* the mitzva of reading the Haggada? Joe Friedman AT&T-IS Holmdel hou3c!hou5g!jgf
regis@aecom.UUCP (05/10/84)
the problem of preparing food for a non-jew does not depend on whether
food was prepared beforehand. the rabbinical injunction was passed down
lest we, for some unforseen reason, have to add more food on the holiday
itself. realize too, that the prohibition applies to reheating food too.
in our house, my mother goes out in the middle of the haggada for a few
moments to put the soup on the stove to warm. adding more soup because
a guest, who is not jewish, was invited, might not be permitted ( i don't
say anything definitive, because i haven't consulted my father [ who
happens to be my rabbi too ]). so a situation like the one i have given
is not too far fetched, and this assumes that all the food was prepared
before the seder started. of course one can say that in their house they
don't do it the way i do, but the rabbis made a decree, and no matter what
the circumstances in any one particular case, we must abide by the rabbinic
ruling.
as to the haggada, and having a non-jew join in, the easiest solution is
for everyone to read along in the haggada. having the non-jew read along
with all others present does not detract from anyone else's reading. it's
not as if the non-jews reading nullifies your own ( again this is my opinion
and i don't know if it hold water halachikally ).
eliyahu teitz.
{cucard,philabs,esquire,pegasus}!aecom!teitzrobison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (05/15/84)
References: In many homes, it is the custom to take turns reading paragraphs of the Magid out loud. In these circumstances, may the non-jew read some of the paragraphs? Does it matter what langauge the paragraphs are read in? I think many people would guess that the Haggadah has been read in accordance with law whether in the original langauge or a translation; and that all of its parts should be read by Jews. But Halacha is full of surprises; I'm looking for an opinion. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
martillo@ihuxj.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (05/20/84)
According to Exodus (S:mot) 1, 10, Pharoah said, "Hey, let's con it [the
Jews] (Habah, nitxakmah lo ...). According to the stories, the Jews were
conned by a gradual enslavement and in fact were tricked into volunteering
for labor to show their loyaly to Pharoah and the Egyptian state.
Later, Exodus 21 (Mis:pat:im) describes the laws of a Hebrew slave who
does not desire his freedom.
If his master should give him a woman and she bears him sons or
daughters, the woman and her children would belong to his master
and he [the Hebrew slave] would go free alone. But if the slave
asserts -- I love my master, my wife, and my children, and will
not go free -- his master will bring him to the judges and then to
door or to the gatepost. His master will pierce his ear with an
awl, and the slave will serve him forever.
This punishment may seem disproportionate after all a man will naturally
want to stay with his wife and with his children. But the generation of
the Exodus as former slaves would have read this passage differently.
They knew the slave mentality. Every time they ran into difficulty
they would complain that Moses had lead them out of servitude.
The statement of refusal of freedom is peculiar. A slave is much more
likely to say -- I love my wife and my children. I love my master seems a
weird addition. But the Jews were enslaved to Egypt and apparently many
were in love with the attributes of Egyptian society. A lot were
unwilling to give up this admiration of Egypt (their wives) and their ways
and attitudes they had picked up from the Egyptians (their children). In
view of the treatment Egyptians gave the Jews, a Jew who would refuse to
become a free man because of his "wife" and his "children" deserved at
least such an ear-piercing.
The situation is similar to Westernized Jews who are now free and who
know the history of the Holocaust and who know how the Nazis and the
allies treated the Jews and who yet persist in self-induced (like S:mot 1,
10) mental enslavement to Western civilization.
Bringing this type of mental enslavement to the celebration of Jewish
freedom at the reading of the Hagadah (Sefardim do not use the word seder
in this context) is particulary inappropriate. Those who actually make
the metaphor incarnate and bring their non-Jewish wives or lovers achieve
an even greater level of inappropriateness ('ulay midat hat:um'ah
ha'axaronah).
The attitudes brought to the Hagadah by American Jews are more of a
problem than the non-Jews who might come.
A few years ago while I was teaching at Harvard, I became acquainted with
the great-granddaughter of Baron Takahashi through my cousin Nissim Falaji
who was studying at MIT and whose family has lived in Japan since the
beginning of the century (according to Christian calculation).
Baron Takahashi was Minister of Finance during the Russo-Japanese War.
Takahashi was favorably disposed toward Jews on the principle the enemy
(Jews) of Japan's enemy (the Russians) is our friend. Also the Takahashis
like many Japanese government figures believed antisemitic propaganda, but
being Japanese and not irrational Westerners, they concluded that if the
Jews were secretly so powerful and wanted to conquer the world, perhaps
Japan should make friends with them.
Baron Takahashi was assasinated by an anti-Modernist faction shortly after
the defeat of Russia. But the family were a factor persuading the
government of Japan not to deport Jews under Japanese rule during WWII.
Setsuko (the great-granddaughter) is interested in Judaica like many of
her family. She is fluent in Hebrew and knows Aramaic fairly decently
(unfortunately unlike most American Jews).
Because some of us speak Japanese, she showed up at my family's Hagadah
(probably aware that Ashkenazim consider food which tastes good
un-Jewish). Since Japanese look for authenticity and since Japanese
probably have similar ways (I suspect) of discouraging conviviality, she
warned us that we should have yayin mebus:al.
She made an interesting contribution (which may be original or which she
may have found in some source but which struck me as rather Japanese --
after all they are the people who introduced the world to kamikazes and
seppuku). She pointed out the sequence:
Ha s:ata' `abdey les:anah haba'ah bney xorim,
* This year [the Jews] are slaves, next they will be free,
Ma nis:tanah ...,
* A request for explanation,
`Abadim hayinu ...,
* The slavery and how Jews would still be slaves without
God's intervention,
Ma`aseh berabi 'eli`ezer werabi yehos:ua`...
* These scholars all perished during the Roman persecution.
A person could never be more free than when he knows he is
about to die (there would be nothing with which to
threaten him). Before a Jew dies he should say s:ma`.
There is nothing wrong in satisfying primate curiosity if a non-Jew shows
up at the reading of the Hagadah; however, inviting non-Jews in order to
demonstrate that there is no real difference between non-Jews and Jews is
wrong and somewhat self-abasing. (Actually, traditional
Jews are much more similar to religious Muslims than to Westerners. Even
here the similarity is not very great.)martillo@ihuxj.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (05/20/84)
According to Exodus (S:mot) 1, 10, Pharoah said, "Hey, let's con [the
Jews] (Habah, nitxakmah lo ...). According to the stories, the Jews were
conned by a gradual enslavement and in fact were tricked into volunteering
for labor to show their loyaly to Pharoah and the Egyptian state.
Later, Exodus 21 (Mis:pat:im) describes the laws of a Hebrew slave who
does not desire his freedom.
If his master should give him a woman and she bears him sons or
daughters, the woman and her children would belong to his master
and he [the Hebrew slave] would go free alone. But if the slave
asserts -- I love my master, my wife, and my children, and will
not go free -- his master will bring him to the judges and then to
door or to the gatepost. His master will pierce his ear with an
awl, and the slave will serve him forever.
This punishment may seem disproportionate after all a man will naturally
want to stay with his wife and with his children. But the generation of
the Exodus as former slaves would have read this passage differently.
They knew the slave mentality. Every time they ran into difficulty
they would complain that Moses had lead them out of servitude.
The statement of refusal of freedom is peculiar. A slave is much more
likely to say -- I love my wife and my children. I love my master seems a
weird addition. But the Jews were enslaved to Egypt and apparently many
were in love with Egyptian society (their master). A lot were
unwilling to give up this admiration of Egypt (their wives) and their ways
and attitudes they had picked up from the Egyptians (their children). In
view of the treatment Egyptians gave the Jews, a Jew who would refuse to
become a free man because of his "wife" and his "children" deserved at
least such an ear-piercing.
The situation is similar to Westernized Jews who are now free and who
know the history of the Holocaust and who know how the Nazis and the
allies treated the Jews and who yet persist in self-induced (like S:mot 1,
10) mental enslavement to Western civilization.
Bringing this type of mental enslavement to the celebration of Jewish
freedom at the reading of the Hagadah (Sefardim do not use the word seder
in this context) is particulary inappropriate. Those who actually make
the metaphor incarnate and bring their non-Jewish wives or lovers achieve
an even greater level of inappropriateness ('ulay midat hat:um'ah
ha'axaronah).
The attitudes brought to the Hagadah by American Jews are more of a
problem than the non-Jews who might come.
A few years ago while I was teaching at Harvard, I became acquainted with
the great-granddaughter of Baron Takahashi through my cousin Nissim Falaji
who was studying at MIT and whose family has lived in Japan since the
beginning of the century (according to Christian calculation).
Baron Takahashi was Minister of Finance during the Russo-Japanese War.
Takahashi was favorably disposed toward Jews on the principle the enemy
(Jews) of Japan's enemy (the Russians) is our friend. Also the Takahashis
like many Japanese government figures believed antisemitic propaganda, but
being Japanese and not irrational Westerners, they concluded that if the
Jews were secretly so powerful and wanted to conquer the world, perhaps
Japan should make friends with them.
Baron Takahashi was assasinated by an anti-Modernist faction shortly after
the defeat of Russia. But the family were a factor persuading the
government of Japan not to deport Jews under Japanese rule during WWII.
Setsuko (the great-granddaughter) is interested in Judaica like many of
her family. She is fluent in Hebrew and knows Aramaic fairly decently
(unfortunately unlike most American Jews).
Because some of us speak Japanese, she showed up at my family's Hagadah
(probably aware that Ashkenazim consider food which tastes good
un-Jewish). Since Japanese look for authenticity and since Japanese
probably have similar ways (I suspect) of discouraging conviviality, she
warned us that we should have yayin mebus:al.
She made an interesting contribution (which may be original or which she
may have found in some source but which struck me as rather Japanese --
after all they are the people who introduced the world to kamikazes and
seppuku). She pointed out the sequence:
Ha s:ata' `abdey les:anah haba'ah bney xorim,
* This year [the Jews] are slaves, next year they will be
free,
Ma nis:tanah ...,
* A request for explanation,
`Abadim hayinu ...,
* The slavery and how Jews would still be slaves without
God's intervention,
Ma`aseh berabi 'eli`ezer werabi yehos:ua`...
* These scholars all perished during the Roman persecution.
A person could never be more free than when he knows he is
about to die (there would be nothing with which to
threaten him). Before a Jew dies he should say s:ma`.
There is nothing wrong in satisfying primate curiosity if a non-Jew shows
up at the reading of the Hagadah; however, inviting non-Jews in order to
demonstrate that there is no real difference between non-Jews and Jews is
wrong and somewhat self-abasing. (Actually, traditional
Jews are much more similar to religious Muslims than to Westerners. Even
here the similarity is not very great.)robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (05/22/84)
Reference: Mr. Martillo's discussion of non-jews at the seder contains serious errors of logic, a few of which I shall note here. I have been greatly informed by the wealth of knowledge, most of it foreign to my own background, that he has sent to the net. But Divisive arguments such as his should be accurate, if they seek a legitimate reason to exist. Martillo starts by describing the Torah's discussion of Jews who prefer to remain slaves because they love their master. He draws a parallel: >> The situation is similar to Westernized Jews who are now free and who >> know the history of the Holocaust and who know how the Nazis and the >> allies treated the Jews and who yet persist in self-induced (like S:mot 1, >> 10) mental enslavement to Western civilization. The above logical error is the equivalence of "nazis" and "allies" with Western Civilization. Martillo immediately continues: >> Bringing this type of mental enslavement to the celebration of Jewish >> freedom at the reading of the Hagadah (Sefardim do not use the word seder >> in this context) is particulary inappropriate. Those who actually make >> the metaphor incarnate and bring their non-Jewish wives or lovers achieve >> an even greater level of inappropriateness ('ulay midat hat:um'ah >> ha'axaronah). Although one can claim that many Jews do enslave themselves to modern civilization, it is probably true that they escape their bonds while celebrating Jewish holidays. The logical error is the assertion that Jews are still in any way enslaved at the seder, or that one can make any inference about their state of enslavement from the their choice of guests. The error in making that inference is to equate individuals with the concept of Western Civilization. After a fascinating digression, Martillo concludes: >> There is nothing wrong in satisfying primate curiosity if a non-Jew shows >> up at the reading of the Hagadah; however, inviting non-Jews in order to >> demonstrate that there is no real difference between non-Jews and Jews is >> wrong and somewhat self-abasing. (Actually, traditional >> Jews are much more similar to religious Muslims than to Westerners. Even >> here the similarity is not very great.) Nowhere in the discussion of inviting nonjews to a seder have I seen any suggestion that we wish to demonstrate that there is no difference between jews and nonjews. I recognize this as an ongoing problem in some specific situations in Judaism; however it is simply external to the current argument. The logical error is that the conclusion is simply irrelevant to Martillo's discussion. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) (05/23/84)
If Toby Robison thinks the allies treated the Jews well, I suggest he read
Britain and the Jews of Europe 1939-1945 which describes how Great Britain
systematically blocked all Jewish escape routes from Europe.
Since the British began declassifying their WWII government documents, we
have learned that many in the FO were worried WWII might end too soon
because too many Jews might survive.
When Wasserstein's book appeared, it proved that Begin's analysis of the
position of the Yishub (a two-front war against the British and the
Germans) was correct and that the Labor and General Zionists were
hopelessly naive.
Canada, Australia, and the USA which together controlled or influenced an
immense amount of territory also closed almost all entry to Jews.
The Soviet Union of all the allies probably saved the most Jewish lives,
which hardly says anything good about the rest of the alliance.
While I am not equating the allies with the Nazis who were animals, the
behavior of the allies was inexcusable during WWII though I can understand
there might be a psychological need to believe Roosevelt was a better man
than he actually was.
Recently the case of Popon in France has shown clearly that fighting
against the Germans hardly contradicted fighting against the Jews.
--
Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo
(An Equal Opportunity Offender)