dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (05/30/84)
I read these two articles in net.women and I think that they are relevant to net.religion.jewish, so in case you don't read net.women, here they are: _________________________________________________________________ Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mhuxi.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: mhuxi!mhuxj!mhuxl!houxm!houxz!vax135!floyd!harpo!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-closus!nerad From: nerad@closus.DEC Newsgroups: net.women Subject: race and sex studies -- an aside FYI, YSM. Message-ID: <721@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Tue, 29-May-84 11:35:20 EDT Article-I.D.: decwrl.721 Posted: Tue May 29 11:35:20 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 29-May-84 21:57:54 EDT Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 16 {...libation...} A note to Yehoyaqim Martillo: you postulated that my name might be Indian--I am told that it is very close to conceivably Pharsee-sounding, but probably not Indian. In fact Nerad is Bohemian Czech, and Shava is the Russian Yiddish-ized diminuitive for Elisheva, which you may recognize as being biblical Hebrew. My family are eastern European Jews, which is why, in my race/sex letter, I chose european jewry as a non-race ethnic group, being closely acquainted with many (even specifically eastern) european jews who have little common genetic background with my family, from all appearance of phenotype at least. Shava Nerad Telematic Systems (@DEC Ed. Svcs.) {decvax, allegra}!decwrl!rhea!closus!nerad From mhuxj!mhuxl!ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo Wed May 30 13:06:45 1984 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mhuxi.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihuxt.UUCP Path: mhuxi!mhuxj!mhuxl!ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo From: martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: race and sex studies -- an aside FYI, YSM. Message-ID: <546@ihuxt.UUCP> Date: Wed, 30-May-84 13:06:45 EDT Article-I.D.: ihuxt.546 Posted: Wed May 30 13:06:45 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 30-May-84 14:02:37 EDT References: <721@decwrl.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL Lines: 53 Usage of the term ethnic group is usually incorrect. Ethnic group usually refers to a cultural subgrouping. Jews (not just Eastern-European Jews) used to form a uniform cultural subgrouping. Two hundred years ago, a Jew might have been born in Vilna (Lithuania) study in Hamburg (Germany), marry a girl in Petigliano (Italy), move to Marakesh (Morocco), make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem (Israel), set up a jewelry shop in Sana` (Yemen) and flee local persecution to Cochin (India). Those people who made such journeys during their lives mention only minor cultural differences between the various communities if any. The Talmudic lifestyle and outlook does not permit a great deal of cultural variety. A hundred years ago the Ashkenazim began to drop out of the Jewish world and have typically produced a lot of nonsense works on Jewish ethnicity in order to justify assimilation. In any case, the Jewish ethnic group like other similar cultural subgroupings was characterized by endogamy. Endogamy does not mean individuals eventually develop the same phenotype or genotype just that gene frequencies remain relatively fixed. A Jew in Krakow might have a higher probability of blood-type AB than a Pole in Krakow. A Jew in Bucharest might have a lower probability of blood-type AB than a Rumanian in Bucharest. But either Jew would probably have about the same probability of having blood type AB. Of course, genetic drift could occur for small isolated populations which is why I mentioned communities which maintained regular communication. Historical accidents might also cause differences in genetic frequency. Accepting converts would have been very dangerous in Yemen over the past 1300 year. However large regions of Poland were barely Christianized even 300 years ago. Therefore some subgroupings of Polish Jews might have greater phenotypic and genotypic affinity with Polish non-Jews than Yemenite Jews might have with Yemenite Muslims. As for bad experiences in learning Math in Vermont, Shava Nerad should perhaps have attended a good Kutab (Talmud-Torah) as my mother did. Nothing would have seemed more worthless to my grandfather Hakam (Rabbi) Hassan than a modern liberal arts goyish type education. Consequently, my mother can calculate gamatriot at light-speed. Since there are some ideas which are so stupid a person could only come to believe them after attending a Western liberal-arts oriented University, we would never send one of our girls to waste her time at such a place. Better she should be married. However, an ability to bring in money makes a girl more marriageable and we could charge her husband a higher mohar (bride-price). Consequently, my mother was educated as an electrical engineer. I would never send a daughter to Harvard, but I would not think twice about MIT or CalTech. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (An Equal Opportunity Offender)