martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) (05/14/84)
Does waiting for the clear presence of the Messiah before making aliyah show any faith or courage? Once the Messiah has shown himself, who would not make aliyah?
rao@utcsstat.UUCP (Eli Posner) (05/16/84)
From: martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) >Does waiting for the clear presence of the Messiah before making aliyah >show any faith or courage? Once the Messiah has shown himself, who would >not make aliyah? I don't know why , but I find the above statement humourous (No offence intended, Yaqim). Now that we (the Jewish People) have a enormous opportunity to move to Israel and fulfill the Mitzvot as we are supposed to, only a small percentage do. All Mitzvot which are connected to the ground (eg. Shmita, Yovel etc.) are not relevent to us here in Chutz La'aretz. There is an opinion that ALL mitzvot are not on us in Chutz La'aretz - but are just being done so they won't be forgotten. In other words, North America is not our home. We are just here temporarily until the time comes when we could go back to Eretz Yisrael, our homeland, and fulfill all the Mitzvot with which we are commanded to do. Therefore , I feel that waiting until the CLEAR presence of Messiah, could be a lack of total faith. I know! You have a nice home here in America, why would you want to go to Israel, where it's scummy (?!) and where there is a chance that your son will die in the army. (Even though there is a greater chance of getting killed in New York.....). This is some peoples feeling. It IS understandable, but could be wrong. On the other hand, those that feel the imminent presence of the messiah do move to Israel as they should. Anyways, why would one have to wait until "the clear presence of Messiah"?? Why wait longer in the Golut?? (Has it become a Tuyva?) We have an oppurtunity to go home. Even if the Messiah is not near (although he is), why WOULDN'T everyone make Aliya? It baffles my mind. [There are those that say that the messiah isn't a person, but rather a time period. If so, it has obviously arrived.] Also, who says that once the Messiah comes, all Jews will make Aliya??!! Please, use commond sense. You don't sense that when he does come , there will be a vast number of opinions of whether he is the real one? I hope you don't think that when He comes there will be flashes of thunder and lightning? THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE OF THE NORM!!!!!! NO MIRACLES!!! Sorry, i don't have the exact reference but I am positive, as I learned this about 2 weeks ago. One more thing: i also learned (sorry, no source again) that the Gedolai Hadoar will argue about whether the Messiah is the real one or not, AND MOST OF THEM WILL BE WRONG!! Ie. ignore him. (Eg. Lubuvitcher and Satmar Rabanim and Rav Moshe; I didn't say that!!!). Thus, I feel that when the Messiah does come, that not all (but hopefully 60%) will make Aliya. As the Rambam said: " one should always live in Israel, even in a city which is all Goy, rather than live in Chutz La'aretz but in a city which is all Jewish". No. I am not a hypocrite. I am moving to Israel in August. -- Eli Posner {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!utcsstat!rao
shg@pyuxu.UUCP (S Gamoran) (05/16/84)
I am b'ezrat hashem going to Israel this fall (you should have already
seen the notice last week putting my house up for sale - it's still
available!). I have accepted a one year appointment to the Weizmann
Institute as a visiting scientist in the computing center. Our intention
is to use that year to find a permanent job, decide where to live, etc.
What with all the discussion about Yom Ha'Atzmaut and Aliyah, I thought
I might post something about why we are going.
First of all, some NOT the reasons we are going:
1. Money - I make 3 times as much here as I will make there (gross, net
after taxes is even worse). The Israeli economy is as bad as ever. We
will definitely have a lower standard of living in Israel.
2. Jewish environment - Those who know Highland Park/Edison understand that
there is no dearth of Jewish life here. Even at work my group last year
consisted of 3 shomrei Shabbat and one non-jew. Half the supervisors and
our district manager are Jewish and sympathetic to needs such as Shabbat and
Yom Tov. Yes, we have kosher food at the annual picnic.
But there are some things that are missing, and these are what drives us to
pick up and leave.
1. Being Jewish is the norm in Israel. Yes, the majority of Israelis are
non-observant but in Israel there is a different quality even to that.
The Jewish holidays are national holidays, stores close on Shabbat. A story
to illustrate: I was sitting on a bus from Tel Aviv to Rehovot at 5:30AM
one day last January. I very moved by the fact that the radio station begins
their broadcast day with Kriyat Shma.
2. Every day we pray for the return to Jerusalem. At the seder we say next
year in Jerusalem. I find it hypocritical to sing that and really intend to
stay here. Besides, for the forst time in 2,000 years I really can go to
Jerusalem and all for getting up the courage to do it.
3. My son, Natan, will learn to speak Hebrew as a native language. This
also has not happened for 2,000 years.
4. My wife, Roxane, would like to go back to work. She is a meteorologist,
a profession which demands around-the-clock work and rotating shifts. She
got hassled to death by the government weather bureau about Shabbat and Yom Tov.
Its also been impossible for her to work with the baby. In Israel she can get
a job without the Shabbat hassles. She will also be better able to find
child care since most mothers work.
I could go on, but I don't want to take up any more disk space and
transmission time. One favor, anyone who has some practical advice for us -
please mail it to me or post it to the net. Bear in mind that we will have
a furnished apartment for the first year so we aren't shipping all that much
now (but we plan to in a year).
Hayom kaf-tet yamim la'omer shehem arba shavuot v'yom echad la'omer
Sam Gamoran (pyuxu!shg)
Bellcore
981-6320teitz@aecom.UUCP (05/16/84)
In what context is this remark being made ?? Please clarify for everyone's sake. Thanks. elli teitz.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (05/23/84)
There is a Tosafot in the end of Ketubot ( Kesubos, for those of Ashkenazik persuasion ), the exact location of which I don't remember, which states that Jews should not move back to Israel. The reason given is that in Israel there are many laws in which we are not expert, exactly those laws which are dependent on the land ( ie. tithing ). It is better, according to Tosafot to live outside Israel, rather than live in Israel and possibly transgress these laws, some of which are punishable by Karet ( Karais ), which loosely translates as cutting off, early death and the extinction of the transgressor's family ( this pun- ishment is in G-D's hands only, so it cannot be verified ). There are those who say this particular Tosafot is a mistake, possibly by a printer or copier, who misunderstood what was intended. However, we still see a valid arguement for not making aliya. This doesn't mean we shouldn't, but rather, if someone does not go on aliya, it should not always be attributed to a lack of belief. I, too, am planning aliya in the future, so don't think this is a cop out. Rather, it is a defense for those who do not want to go on aliya. Besides, what is so great about Israel that everyone should flock there. There is a Midrash, I know not where, that says, G-D blessed the Jews by spreading them all over the world so that no one would be able to destroy us all. elli teitz.
kramer@aecom.UUCP (05/23/84)
True there is an opinion (of Rav Chaim Cohn) in the Tosefos in
Kesuvos (Ketuvot for those Sfardim) on page 110b but I believe it's the
Maharsha who says that it must have been a talmid to'he (a mistaken
student - loosely translated) who said that because firstly just because
it's hard to do a mitzva doesn't mean that one shouldn't put oneself in
the situation which makes him responsible to do so. Besides even if it
isn't a mistake it for sure doesn't apply today. People are able to be
shomer Shemita (carefull with the laws of the Sabbatical year) and
Terumos and Maasros (laws of Tithe etc.) without any difficulty now.
The other reason Rav Chaim Cohn gives for not being responsible to
go on Aliyah today is because it's dangerous to travel there. This is
undoubtably not pertanent today.
Besides I'm almost 100% sure that noone bring this opinion down
L'halacha.
Benjy Kramer
--
Benjy Kramer
{ihnp4|spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!kramerrao@utcsstat.UUCP (Eli Posner) (05/31/84)
Mr. Teitz: Mr Kramer took the words right out of my mouth! (except I don't
think it was the Maharsha who disagreed).
Please Elli (could I call you that), that logic is so obviously bad.
Since when don't you attempt a Mitzva because you're scared that you might
not do it right and then get a sin.(NO, it's not a mitzva habah meen ha'avaira).
Second of all, who says you're going to be punished? If I can't fulfill a Mitzva
because it is impossible to do (ie. 100 years ago to fulfill laws of Shemita
because have to eat something ), why would I punished, have you never heard
of Sakonot Nefoshot?
Now, if you're going to say, 'then why would I live there if there is Sakanot
Nefashot?' - I'll just tell you that there isn't!
Now tell me, *how in the world could i get Korait!!* . If you say ' because
you're transgressing the laws of Shemita', I'll reply 'why the h-ll do you
think i was transgressing the laws of shemita?!? Because I couldn't!'
Since I couldn't I am not Ovair on anything.
--
Eli Posner
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!utcsstat!rao