[net.religion.jewish] Assertions of jewishness by reform and Conservative Jews

robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (05/21/84)

References:

I expect that Mr. Martillo's note on the "malevolence" of reform Jews
will stir up a hornet's nest of debate.  I would like everyone to consider,
as they reach for their terminals, that you can prove anything using
modern informal reasoning -- we have no tightly controlled logical
procedures here.  I will respond by discussing a genuine situation
(rather than assertions about past history) that is causing me great anguish,
and gives me a feeling that I am living among thousands of Jews who in fact
are failing to experience their Judaism sufficently deeply.

I will not charge any Jew with malevolence, but I fear a dangerous casual
disregard.

FIRST, here's the situation:

For the second year in a row, my daughter's school has scheduled a major
event on Shavuot.  Last year it was the only performance of the play of Anne
Frank (how's that for irony).  She was a member of the cast, and the
performance date was selected only after two months of rehearsals.
Very delicate negotiations with the school resulted in an additional
performance given before Shavuoth; my daughter was not able to attend the
second performance, nor the cast party.

This year, the school announced, on short notice, its trip for 8th-grade
music students to NYC to hear a symphonic concert conducted by Mehta, which
also conflicts with the end of Shavuoth.  My daughter is heavily involved
in the music program and will miss a major social and musical event.  Delicate
negotiations with the school have produced nothing so far, although there is
still a little hope.

The school has a Jewish calendar every year.  I have not been able to get a
clear picture of the reasoning that leads to these conflicts, but it is clear
that concern for conflicts with Jewish holidays is very low on the school
administration's priorities.

NOW, the anguish:

In dealing with this situation, I became aware as never before how isolated I
am among the Jewish community of my suburban area.  Virtually no other
students were inconvenienced by these scheduling conflicts, despite the
fact that the local population is at least 20% Jewish, and Shavuoth is
traditionally the time of Confirmation ceremonies by children whose siblings
might well be in our public school.  Had twenty families, even ten,
complained, our situation with the school would have been different.
However we were nearly alone in asking the school to avoid scheduling
events against Shavuoth or Sukkoth, which, I have discovered, many Jews view
as unimportant or no-longer-significant holidays.

The local town Rabbi suggested that my main priority should be to get my
children into a private Jewish school.  There is much to say for this point
of view, but we want our children to have a public school education for
many valid reasons.
NJ Bnai Brith feels that little can be done with the schools on this issue.

FINALLY, the conclusion:

I cannot believe that people in general who assert their Jewishness, and
attempt to practice their religion in a meaningful way, can nearly ignore
Shavuoth and Sukkoth.  I do not believe that they can routinely leave their
children in school to pursue normal activities on the no-work days of the
Three Festivals.  The only explanation I can accept for my isolation on this
issue is that the great majority of conservative and reform Jews are
concentrating upon a few facts of their religion and satisfied with that.
If this is true, they are taking a great risk, since historically Judaism
has only survived where many Jews took a more global view of what it meant
to practice the religion.

I will not charge any Jew with malevolence, but I fear a dangerous casual
disregard.
					- Toby Robison (not Robinson!)
					allegra!eosp1!robison
					decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison
					princeton!eosp1!robison

martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Martillo) (05/26/84)

I am not sure I understand Toby Robison's use of jewishness.  I think of
jewishness as being equivalent to Hebrew Yahadut, Judeo-Spanish Judezmo or
Judeo-Arabic al-Yahud.

These terms all simultaneous refer to the Jewish world, Jewish practice,
Jewry and the quality of being a Jew.  The reform specifically deny the
existence of a separate Jewish nation.  The objective of the JTS was to
develop a specifically American form of Jewish observance.  This objective
ignored that Jewry existed for thousands of years before there was a USA
and Jewry will exist long after there is no longer a USA.  The reform
denies Jewishness and the JTS subordinates Jewishness to Americanism, lack
of Jewish assertiveness by the non-observant is hardly surprising.

mls@wxlvax.UUCP (Michael Schneider) (05/29/84)

There is a difference between the belief of Orthodox Jews and the rest.  
Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah was given to Moshe Rabanau on Mount
Sini.  The rest have stated that the Torah was written by man with divine 
inspiration.  What does mean?  If, as the Orthodox believe, it was G_d who
wrote the Torah, then it can not be changed; nothing can be added, modified
or removed.  On the other hand, if man wrote it, then man can change it.  We
have seen this view applied by Reform, Conservative, and the others in the
way they have formulated their "laws."  In most cases, they have weakened
the laws to make the religion fit into today's world.

Although many of their changes only effect the individual who does not perform
a Mitzva, three items effect the unity of the Jewish people: conversion,
divorce, and who is a Jew (other than the problems related to conversion).
In addition, the modifications to who is a valid witness and who can be 
counted as part of a minyon further separate them from Orthodox Jews.  

The question arose as to the word "fraudulent."  The change from a Torah
written by G_d to one written by man is major. Since the Torah was given to
Moshe Rabanau by G_d, it can't be changed, no matter what people want to do. 
Either there is one law given to the Jewish people, or there isn't.  Thus,
any group that suggests that the law can be changed can be considered
"fraudulent."  

It should be noted that the above comments only apply to changes to the law and
not to interpretations.  The Conservative movement has stated that many of
their modifications were not changes, but interpretations.  Yet, in some of
their modifications, the Talmud Department at JTS has publicly stated that they
changed the law, not interpreted it.  

However, non-Orthodox Jews (if they meet the legal criteria) are still Jews,
no matter what they do or believe.  

					M.L. Schneider
. 

trb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (06/02/84)

M.L. Schneider mls@wxlvax.UUCP states:

>There is a difference between the belief of Orthodox Jews and the rest.  
>Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah was given to Moshe Rabanau on Mount
>Sini.  The rest have stated that the Torah was written by man with divine 
>inspiration.  

Whoa Nellie!

I am here to invalidate the statement above.  I am not an Orthodox
Jew, I do not pretend to be nor would anyone mistake me for one.  What
kind of Jew am I?  I am a Jew Jew.  Just a Jew, thank you.  I DO NOT
state that the Torah was written by man with divine inspiration.

Well, let me be quite explicit.  Judaism teaches that God gave
(taught) Moses the Torah when Moses went up Mount Sinai for 50 days.
God dictated, Moses recorded.  If that's what you meant by "written by
man," then you sure said it in a misleading way.

Anybody who claims that Judaism dictates another belief, is misled and
misleading.  I am driven to disgust by such misleading statements as
the one proffered above by M.L. Schneider.  I will refrain from spewing
vulgarity here, but consider it done.

Note that I am not defending the absolute truth of the fact that Moses
received the Torah from God on Mount Sinai, I am informing you that
this is Jewish belief, this is a tenet of the Jewish *Faith*,
as are the commandments in the Torah, which are accepted without question.

I have NEVER heard it proffered as a tenet of Jewish faith that the
Torah was written by man with divine inspiration (except as I explained
above).  This isn't proof that it isn't, it's just strong evidence that
the idea can't be terribly widespread.  (I grew up in New York City,
which has a large community of Jews, and went to a yeshiva grade
school, so I wasn't isolated from popular Jewish ideas.)

	Andy Tannenbaum   Masscomp Inc  Westford MA   (617) 692-6200 x274

axm9839@acf4.UUCP (Asher Meth) (06/05/84)

Yom sheini leparshas beha-alosecha, 4 SIVAN 5744, 48 days in the Omer.

Andy Tannenbaum writes :

  >Well, let me be quite explicit.  Judaism teaches that God gave
>>>(taught) Moses the Torah when Moses went up Mount Sinai for 50 days.<<<
  >God dictated, Moses recorded.  If that's what you meant by "written by
  >man," then you sure said it in a misleading way.

Andy !! I'm surprised at you. You should NOT have made that mistake !!!

That 50 should be 40 days and 40 nights.

The number 50 is one off of 49, which is the number of days we count between
Pesach and Shavous - the period of time between leaving Mitzrayim (Egypt) and
its enslavement, and our receiving of the Torah at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).

A Gutten Yom-Tov to one and all.
May we all be zocheh to the geulah sheleimah, bimheirah beyameinu amein.

                Asher Meth
                allegra!cmcl2!acf4!axm9839