welsch@houxu.UUCP (Larry Welsch) (06/03/84)
For crying out loud, if people are offended by being called goys then they are offended. I am not Jewish, but none of my Jewish friends have ever referred to me as a goy. If they did then I would be offended. Stop trying to rationalize using what some people find is an offensive term. You sound to me like a bunch of whites justifying why a black person should not be offended at being called a nigger. Next, I really think that there is something wrong when someone says I agree "goy" is a neutral term when applied to non-Jews. It is a different story when this term is applied to Jews. I got news for you, if the term is offensive to you then it is probably doubly offensive to me. Its use shows a lack of respect for the other peoples of the world. I may not be Jewish, but I am not a goy either. Finally, why not be positive in assertions. For example to paraphrase an earlier statement someone said, "I don't want my children to get a goyish education." Instead why not say "I want my children to get a Jewish education." The first statement is negative and I find offensive. It implies that "goyish" education is so bad that no education is preferable to a goyish education. The second statement is positive and doesn't have any offensive implications. Not Jewish and Not a goy, Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (06/03/84)
From Larry Welsch: >For crying out loud, if people are offended by being called goys then they >are offended. If people are offended by the term goy then it should not be used. >Next, I really think that there is something wrong when someone says > > I agree "goy" is a neutral term when applied to non-Jews. > > It is a different story when this term is applied to Jews. What I meant, if someone uses this term to denote a non-Jew, the intentions of the user of the term are not derogatory. On the other hand, when one Jew labels another Jew as a goy it is the intention of the user to use it as a demeaning expression. Note, I am only talking here on the motives of the users of this expression, not from the perspective of the individuals "covered" by this expression. >I got news for you, if the term is offensive to you then it is probably >doubly offensive to me. I did not say that I was offended by being labeled as a goy, I was not. (Using a simple mathematical rule - multiplication by zero - we may infer that you are not actually offended by this term.) Seriously,I agree with you that an expression should not be used to describe a group of people, if this group considers the expression derogatory or insulting. The feeling of the objects of such expression are more important than the intentions of the users of the expression. -- Yosi Hoshen Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois (312)-979-7321 Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
trb@masscomp.UUCP (06/05/84)
houxu!welsch: >For crying out loud, if people are offended by being called goys then they >are offended. I am not Jewish, but none of my Jewish friends have ever >referred to me as a goy. If they did then I would be offended. Stop >trying to rationalize using what some people find is an offensive term... I think Larry is off track here. Think of "goy" like "COBOL programmer." Is it offensive? Essentially, no. Possibly, yes. Should its use be discouraged? Nope. The question hasn't got a yes or no answer, and it's been covered here adequately. If you want facts about the use of "goy," read Yaqim's article. Other than that, I hope the discussion on "goy" ends, as they say in Hebrew, bimheira veyameinu ("speedily and in our days" - that's Jewish ASAP). Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274