yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (09/23/84)
Mr. Brown: Why can you not be content with a free country? Why does it have to be Christian? I regard Christianity as pagan and much worse than materialism and secularism - and I certainly do NOT advocate the latter. Why must you IMPOSE your Christianity on Jews? This is where Constantine, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and Hitler got their start. You have advocated prayer in schools as a part of the same philo- sophy. You would have Jewish children forced to sit in class and listen to prayers in the name of your god - which is slanderous and blasphemous to us. That is not freedom. Why do you equate freedom for YOUR religion with freedom generally? That is precisely what the founding fathers fled when they came here.
wkp@lanl-a.UUCP (09/25/84)
I am somewhat disturbed--and at the same time somewhat sympathetic-- to Yiri BenDavid's views expressed in his "Christian naion" article. Yiri, while it is true that some parts of Christianity can be viewed as paganistic according to Jewish teachng, I feel it is very unfair to make the statement that Christianity--which in a sense Judaized the *real* pagan world--is worse than materialism. It seems to me that such a statement is at best, inappropriate, and at worst, antagonistic. Perhaps the real reason for your concern is the fact that you resent being Jewish in a predominantly Christian nation. Instead of confronting the fact, and perhaps moving to Brooklyn or Netanya, you are under the illusion that the dominant religion in this nation should cloak itself in secular garb, and not show its face to you. Most religious Jews probably do not have these conflicts because they do not care if a school district in Montgomerey County, Alabama prays to a Jewish carpenter. In fact, this is just what they want: non-religious Jews would then be confronted with their Jewishness (like that Jewish mother who found her kid singing So-and-so Loves Me). The problem of separating the holy from the profane (hamavdil ben kodesh l'chol) then becomes a lot easier, doesn't it? My advice: send your kids to day school, teach them Jewish ways, and let them be a light unto the nations: Don't worry about small political issues, and don't get bitter at other religious beliefs. Shanah tovah, bill peter (wkp@lanl)
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (09/27/84)
Mr. BenDavid, You misrepresent what I desire. I desire the freedom of school children to pray (on their own without "official" sanction) out loud if they want to. A truly vital understanding of freedom of speech includes free religious speech as well as other kinds of speech. Scenario: 40 students in a classroom, 15 minutes before class begins. 16 Christians congregate in one corner of the room for a few minutes of prayer (or out in the hall if there are too many to comfortably fit) 5 Jews congregate and ... 6 atheists sit around and grin knowingly about the Jews and Christians while rolling their eyes occasionally 0.5 Buddhists spin their prayer wheel and .. You get the idea. Right now in a lot of school systems my scenario could not come true because a few vocal atheists and others have twisted the establishment of religion taboo into a straight-jacket on freedom of religious speech. Religious speech is definitely second class speech in this country especially in the academic community. I also noticed you have colossal chip on your shoulder Mr. B... I apologize for any part my ancestors may have had in persecuting your people. But if the US were truly a Christian nation I firmly believe that Jews would be better off because they wouldn't get the ration of %$#! they have gotten elsewhere and would be free to practice Judaism without hassle. I would expect you to face the fact that Judaism is not very evangelical (these days anyway) and the only way you are going to be able to remove the blasphemy from in front of your face is to move your face. But I think it will take quite an outbreak of soul saving before the US becomes a Christian nation Do you really prefer secular humanism and paganism to real Christianity or is it some Hitler or Constantine Christian straw man you are spewing venom on ? Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}