[net.religion.jewish] Christian nation

yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (09/23/84)

Mr. Brown:
Why can you not be content with a free country? Why does it have
to be Christian? I regard Christianity as pagan and much worse
than materialism and secularism - and I certainly do NOT advocate
the latter. Why must you IMPOSE your Christianity on Jews? This
is where Constantine, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and
Hitler got their start. 

You have advocated prayer in schools as a part of the same philo-
sophy. You would have Jewish children forced to sit in class and
listen to prayers in the name of your god - which is slanderous
and blasphemous to us. That is not freedom. Why do you equate
freedom for YOUR religion with freedom generally? That is precisely
what the founding fathers fled when they came here. 

wkp@lanl-a.UUCP (09/25/84)

I am somewhat disturbed--and at the same time somewhat sympathetic--
to Yiri BenDavid's views expressed in his "Christian naion" article.

Yiri, while it is true that some parts of Christianity can be viewed as
paganistic according to Jewish teachng, I feel it is very unfair
to make the statement that Christianity--which in a sense Judaized
the *real* pagan world--is worse than materialism.  It seems to me
that such a statement is at best, inappropriate, and at worst, antagonistic.

Perhaps the real reason for your concern is the fact that you resent
being Jewish in a predominantly Christian nation.  Instead of confronting
the fact, and perhaps moving to Brooklyn or Netanya, you are under the
illusion that the dominant religion in this nation should cloak itself
in secular garb, and not show its face to you.

Most religious Jews probably do not have these conflicts because
they do not care if a school district in Montgomerey County, Alabama
prays to a Jewish carpenter.  In fact, this is just what they want:   
non-religious Jews would then be confronted with their
Jewishness (like that Jewish mother who found her kid singing So-and-so
Loves Me).  The problem of separating the holy from the profane (hamavdil
ben kodesh l'chol) then becomes a lot easier, doesn't it?
                               
My advice:  send your kids to day school, teach them Jewish ways, and
let them be a light unto the nations:  Don't worry about small political 
issues, and don't get bitter at other religious beliefs.

                                           Shanah tovah,

                                           bill peter
                                           (wkp@lanl)

rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (09/27/84)

Mr. BenDavid,

You misrepresent what I desire.

I desire the freedom of school children to pray (on their own
without "official" sanction) out loud if they want to.
A truly vital understanding of freedom of speech includes
free religious speech as well as other kinds of speech.

Scenario:

40 students in a classroom, 15 minutes before class begins.

16 Christians congregate in one corner of the room for a few
minutes of prayer (or out in the hall if there are too many
to comfortably fit)

5 Jews congregate and ...

6 atheists sit around and grin knowingly about the Jews and Christians
while rolling their eyes occasionally

0.5 Buddhists spin their prayer wheel and ..

You get the idea.

Right now in a lot of school systems my scenario could not come
true because a few vocal atheists and others have twisted the
establishment of religion taboo into a straight-jacket on 
freedom of religious speech.  Religious speech is definitely
second class speech in this country especially in the academic
community.

I also noticed you have colossal chip on your shoulder Mr. B...

I apologize for any part my ancestors may have had in persecuting
your people.  But if the US were truly a Christian nation I firmly
believe that Jews would be better off because they wouldn't
get the ration of %$#! they have gotten elsewhere and would be free
to practice Judaism without hassle.

I would expect you to face the fact that Judaism is not very
evangelical (these days anyway) and the only way you are going
to be able to remove the blasphemy from in front of your face
is to move your face.  But I think it will take quite an outbreak
of soul saving before the US becomes a Christian nation


Do you really prefer secular humanism and paganism to real
Christianity or is it some Hitler or Constantine Christian
straw man you are spewing venom on ?


Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}