welsch@houxu.UUCP (Larry Welsch) (09/23/84)
As a non-Jew observing this debate on who is Jewish, I have some simple questions: Who were the first Jews? Were Adam and Eve Jews? If Eve is a Jew then by Jewish law aren't we all Jews? Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (09/24/84)
> As a non-Jew observing this debate on who is Jewish, I have some simple > questions: > > Who were the first Jews? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Family. > Were Adam and Eve Jews? No. > If Eve is a Jew then by Jewish law aren't we all Jews? Since Eve wasn't a Jew, the answer is no. > Larry Welsch > houxu!welsch David S. Green ..mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (09/24/84)
> As a non-Jew observing this debate on who is Jewish, I have some simple > questions: > > Who were the first Jews? > > Were Adam and Eve Jews? > > If Eve is a Jew then by Jewish law aren't we all Jews? > > > Larry Welsch > houxu!welsch Sarah and Avraham were the first Jews. Sarah and Avraham's son Yitzchok (Isaac) married his cousin Rivkah (Rebekkah) who accepted Judaism in some poorly defined way. Rivkah and Yitzchok's son Yaakov (Jacob) married his cousins Rachel and Leah who also accepted Judaism as above. Rivkah and Yitzchok's other son Esau rejected Judaism. The decendants of Yaakov by Leah, Rachel and their "handmaidens" are Jews. The insistance on Judaism being passed by the mother as well as more formal conversion procedures are products of a later age. However, Avraham's son Ishmael, whose mother was not Sarah but Hagar, was not Jewish. This serves as part of the basis for insisting on matrilineal religious determination. -- mhuxv!segs
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (09/25/84)
The first Jew was Avraham (Abraham). Adam and Eve were not Jews. The third question is answered in the second. I'm glad to see someone asking instead of jumping to erroneous conclusions. Hats off to you.
did@ucla-cs.UUCP (09/26/84)
No, Adam and Eve were not jewish (indeed everyone would be if they
were). The first jew was Abraham.
Dave
Arpa: did@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP: { ihnp4 | randvax | sdcrdcf | trwspp | ucbvax } !ucla-cs!didteitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (10/04/84)
> No, Adam and Eve were not jewish (indeed everyone would be if they > were). The first jew was Abraham. > > Dave > Arpa: did@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA > UUCP: { ihnp4 | randvax | sdcrdcf | trwspp | ucbvax } !ucla-cs!did *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** Adam and Eve were not Jewish. To this I agree. However, when it comes to Abraham, I run into problems. The real question I have is not whether Abraham was Jewish, rather the question is, how do we define what a Jew is? I know this is a a tough question and I do not want to get involved in the current debate going on now in Israel. Rather, I simply ask, if we are Jews because we have the Torah which sets us apart from the non-Jews, then there really were no 'Jews' before we left Egypt to accept the Torah at Mt. Sinai. Abraham observed the laws of the Torah, according to the Midrash. A good question that can be asked is : exactly what did Abraham follow. Was it the Written Law as we have it ( Torah Shebichtav ) or was it some form of Oral Law ( Torah Shebaalpeh ). There is no answer to this question since we cannot ask Abraham as to what he followed. Abraham was called a 'father of the nations' (a loose translation of 'Av hamon goyim' ), which means that he set up a way of life for all to follow, not only the Jews. The Arabs consider him as their patriarch, too. If I had to give my opinion, i would say that the first 'Jews' were the people who accepted the Torah. Our forefathers were the ones who showed us a lifestyle built on these principles ( although they might not have had a written code to follow ). So in a sense, our patriarchs were Jewish although they weren't Jews. at Jacob learned in the school of Shem and Ever ( yeshivat shem vever ) for 14 years so this shows that there was a Torah. My answer to this is simple. There is yet another saying from our Rabbis, that Moses received the Torah in its entirety at Mt. Sinai, that all new ideas that will ever be thought of ( Chidushei Torah ) were known to Moshe. If so, then there is a Gemara ( I do not re- member where it is ) that relates a story of Moshe walking with G-D and G-D telling Moshe that if he, Moshe had no received the Torah at Mt. Sinai then Rabbi Akiva would have been the one to bring it to the Jews. Moshe then went to hear a discourse from this Rabbi Akiva to see his greatness. Moshe found Rabbi Akiva expounding on the crowns of the letters ( in the Torah, certain letters are written with what look like crowns on them ). Moshe could not understand what Rabbi Akiva was talking about. If MOshe had known the entire body of Torah knowledge, how could Rabbi Akiva have said something that Moshe did not know. The answer as I see it is: Moshe knew all the laws of the Torah as no one else did, does or ever will. However, Moshe saw things directly, without need of inference from the text ( he did not need the drashot that we have now ). When Moshe saw Rabbi Akiva teaching, what he did not understand was the way Rabbi Akiva was teaching or the need for a non-direct approach. The laws were obvious ( a poor analogy would be arithmetic. I do not need devices to help me remember that one and one is two. However, I do need such devices for calculus. Moshe understood every- thing as if it were arithmetic ).It is not that Rabbi Akiva was teaching something that Moshe did not know, rather it was something that Moshe never saw a need for, and understood it without being told. Now, finally back to our Patriarchs. They saw things in a totally different light. Avraham realize monotheism without being told. So he and his children could follow the laws of this G-D without ever seeing a written text. As I said before, our Patriarchs, in my opinion, were Jewish but they weren't Jews. Now that we have the Torah we do not have this ability to split the two. We are Jews because we have the Torah, whether we observe it or not ( and I make no judgement here as to how it is observed ). We are Jewish for the same reason. The two are now inseperable. These ideas may sound a bit radical coming from an Orthodox Jew but I have spent many hours thinking through this position, even before the article I am responding to appeared on the net. If you want to discuss it further I can give a more in depth response to a personal letter rather than to an article on the net. Wishing everyone a G'mar Chatima Tova and an meaningful fast, Writing for the honor of the Torah, Eliyahu Teitz.