[net.religion.jewish] Ignorant, assimilated Ashkenazim discussion

cher@ihuxi.UUCP (Mike Musing) (10/03/84)

<> oops, second try ...

Just not to say dreck. I did not respond to Martillo's article
because it was generally anti-leftist. No objections here.
However, from my grandmother's tales and from my own experience
(some 20 years in USSR) I would conclude that Soviet oppression
is less severe then that of czars. Russian Jews generally
greeted the czar's overthrow and even the Communist takeover
(some 8 months later). Some subjective accounts of the Soviet
life in the 20's and 30's indicate that there practically was
no anti-semitism (on state level at least). Same conclusion
can be made observing the abundance of Jews in high Communist
Party positions during that period. 
My possible explanations are: revolutionary hype,
                              non-russian origin of Stalin himself
			      social rather then racial scapegoats (main)
I do not think there were any pogroms, but I talked to 
some trustworthy people who claimed that they
saw barracks in Siberia built in the area to which all
Jewish population of the country was to be exiled. Stalin's death
supposedly prevented the plan from being materialized.

Anyway, everybody has some idea of what happened later.
One area where there is more oppression is religion (some
would say it is the main thing). Access to education,
with all existing inequalities is easier (no max quotas).
Getting the hell out of that country is HARDER.
No geographical restrictions on settlement (yet).

Overall, I stand behind my initial statement.
Some other things Martillo said sounded unfounded to me.
Like Ashkenazi desire to become French, German, etc.
Like stating that Sefardic attitude is "more correct".

But that's already much more typing then I intended to do.
Uff.
                             Mike Cherepov (aka Musing)

martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/08/84)

I  showed  the  articles  on  Czarist versus Soviet treatment of Jews to
members of the Russian Jewish community in New York and Boston.  If  any
one wants phone numbers, I can give via private mail.

The results:

Czarist Pogroms versus Yevsektsia and Stalinist Executions.

In a typical czarist pogrom order of 20 people died.

Over a similar time period the Yevsektsias or Stalin would order several
hundred executions.

Drafting of Children versus Removing children from unfit parents
(because of Jewish identification)

About equal numbers except that the Soviets have been more likely to
execute or exile the parents to Siberia.

Attending Universities

Czarists and Soviets place restrictions on Jewish attendence at
University.

Destruction of the Jewish Community

Czarists -- minor censorship of Jewish religious books.

Soviet -- total destruction of the Jewish community by forbidding and
making illegal any sort of Jewish education or Jewish observance.

Emigration

Under the Czarists Jews were always free to leave.

Under the Soviets even when some Jews were permitted to leave, there
were massive restrictions.

Why do Mike Musing and David Rubin believe Ignorant VusVus Fairy Tales
about the Czarists?

Assimilated Ashkenazim consider restrictions on admittance to non-Jewish
society a most terrible form of anti-semitism.  In Czarist society a Jew
was always a Jew even after conversion.  The Soviets pay lip service  to
ideas  of  equality  and  universality of human society.  The low common
vulgar VusVus, who came to the USA before the 20s who knew nothing about
Yahadut  and therefore grovelled and had no pride, psychologically found
czarist restrictions unbearable.

Just a note  on  general  (not  related  to  Jews)  Czarist  and  Soviet
brutality.   In  the  19th  century the Czarist empire was primitive and
barabic yet less than 30 were executed by  the  government.   Since  the
beginning  of the Soviet Regime (less than one hundred years ago) on the
order of 20 million people are estimated to have been  murdered  by  the
government.

The hallmark of the VusVus is not letting  reality  interfere  with  his
world view.