segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (09/19/84)
I received the following response to my posting from Ken Wolman who presently has read-only access to Usenet. We agreed I should post it. Susan Slusky mhuxv!segs ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Susan, I read your posting about/from the woman with the kid singing "Jesus Loves Me." I'd like to say I'm furious, but I'm not: just sort of saddened because the problem is staring her right in the face and she hasn't the foggiest idea of what's wrong. The Esther Jungreis answer to everything is "light Shabbos candles," but that's an oversimplifica- tion of something that's not quite as easy to solve as it is to diag- nose. Every parent has this problem, it seems. There is the Christmas tree, and it's pretty, and your kid wonders why we won't bring one in the house. "Because were Jews." "Oh." Not "because we have Chanukah"; just "because we're Jews." My six year old is already aware that life for him is a bit different than for his gentile friends, but it is not yet a big deal. Of course the question is "how big a deal SHOULD we make it?" A people apart, etc. etc. What I find most depressing is that this woman can't see the obvious solution to her problem. "We're Jewish, so please don't sing 'Jesus Loves Me' to Rebecca." And if the sitter won't go along, get rid of her, get someone else who either is Jewish or isn't out to convert us. It's as though she is afraid to assert her Jewish- ness even to the extent of SAYING she's a Jew! Like it's some big dirty secret like having herpes. Of course the problem extends far beyond the immediate case of the sitter. How do you educate a Jewish child in a pluralistic society? especially if you are not "Orthodox" but still are a committed Jew? Orthodox communities such as Boro Park, Highland Park, Lakewood, Fair Lawn, make the job a bit easier (but not entirely so!). There is Orthodoxy's commitment to education in yeshivot to mini- mize "contamination" from the goyishe world. But Orthodox day schools seem to be growing away from non-Orthodox Jews; the feed- back I'm getting from people who have kids in Hillel in Passaic and Yavneh in Paramus is that these schools are increasingly hostile to kids from homes where the parents are not completely ob- servant (whatever "completely" means), and there are frictions de- veloping among kids and groups of parents. There will be a Schechter school opening in Wayne next year for the earlier grades, and hopefully it will be expanded over the next few years. It seems to be less doctrinaire than the yeshivot in the area, more "realistic" in terms of what is expected of both kids and parents; and the level of instruction may be a hell of a lot better. I am not suggesting The Solution is day school for every Jewish child. I think, though, that some motivation has be created or nurtured in which education--either from self or others--can take place so that the identity problem is taken care of. This lady on the net sounds as though she is not yet even at square one. Think of the Hagaddah and the child who cannot even ask a question, and let's hope we don't all shrink from the enormity of the task. Ken Wolman whuxe!ktw -- mhuxv!segs
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (GREEN) (09/19/84)
> I am not suggesting The Solution is day school for every Jewish > child. I think, though, that some motivation has be created or > nurtured in which education--either from self or others--can > take place so that the identity problem is taken care of. This > lady on the net sounds as though she is not yet even at square > one. Think of the Hagaddah and the child who cannot even ask a > question, and let's hope we don't all shrink from the enormity > of the task. > > Ken Wolman > whuxe!ktw The mother is already at "square one" if the singing of the song bothered her enough to post the original article to net.kids. The task is getting her to square two. Not knowing the person, the best that I can do is recommend the book "How to Raise a Jewish Child". If she is reading this posting and interested, I will gladly send her a copy David Seth Green AT&T Bell Labs {most systems}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (09/20/84)
There are many questions which, it seems to me, must be answered before any responsible and meaningful suggestions could be offerred. When she says 'I am Jewish', what does that mean to her? Are we talking about a family with a kosher kitchen who is shomer shabbat? Does she regard herself as Jewish simply because she was born that way or married into it? Does she merely find Christianity repugnant and that is what Jewish means? These questions reflect vastly different environments in which that problem may have arisen - and the solutions would be vastly different for each. It is curious to me why it was posted on net.kids rather than on net.religion.jewish. The Christian world, for the most part at least, will take pride in bringing about such a wonderful thing, and will applaud the babysitter who has done such a commendable job of witnessing the blessed good news. Certainly this is counter-productive. Is she and her family on close terms with an orthodox (or perhaps a conservative) rabbi and observant friends in that congregation? Since this is my advice, I feel responsible to stipulate either orthodox or conservative at the least. I don't feel reform rabbis have anything more than the goyim to offer. Sorry if I offend anyone but I have the right to my opinion and the responsibility when I try to help to do what I feel is really helpful. In point of fact, I think the reform rabbi or synagogue is detrimental in that it disguises assimilation in a cloak of false approval and acceptance and a kind of emasculated Judaism the end result of which is frequently the kind of situation we see here. I recognize that there are those who disagree with me. Let both sides do their best to help her the best they can rather than fight with each other. It seems to me that the best defense is a good offense. If her family were bubbling over with the richness of Judaism then it could have been the gentile babysitter who learned 'heiveinu shalom aleikhem' from the 2-year-old. I've seen this happen, it is not mere theory. Perhaps the most painful question centers around how families get in this kind of situation where they apparently have no close ties with observant rabbis, synagogues and friends? Why aren't their lives bubbling over with the richness of Judaism? It's there. I know because I have it. How does Judaism become reduced to simply not being a Christian? Is this all we have to offer our children? Aren't we extraordinarily moronic to expect children to accept such a premise when they get a little older? If we imitate the goyim (assimilate) we acknowledge that they are right and that Judaism is archaic, etc. Do we not know any better? What kind of legacy are we passing on? If we are aware of this richness shouldn't we be more active than the Christians in teaching our children? Is knowledge not the cornerstone of Judaism? Who is to blame? Who can correct these things? How? There are more vexing questions. Why aren't we who enjoy the riches of Judaism more active in sharing them. They are free. We don't lose them when we share them. In fact, sharing them enhances the richness. Why aren't we reaching out and supporting such families. Why aren't we helping them. Why isn't there someone THERE reaching out and helping that family? How can we - you and I - help? There are increasing numbers of families who have become disenamored with the emphasis on fund-raising and social status in the synagogue - in Judaism and have become unaffiliated families disgusted with the callous attitudes of the formal Jewish communities. How do we rectify that? How do we reach and help them? Certainly not be putting them on the list to call periodically for contributions. Her dillema is my fault... and yours. What shall we do about it? I would be delighted to talk with her, correspond with her, be her friend, and do whatever I can to help. Please do not repost this article on another net. Rather, encourage Jewish readers to look toward Judaism and each of us to try diligently to be really helpful and supportive. Yes, the reform too. I disagree with FELLOW Jews, but they are still fellow Jews whom I care about a great deal.
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (09/20/84)
> Of course the problem extends far beyond the immediate case of the > sitter. How do you educate a Jewish child in a pluralistic society? > especially if you are not "Orthodox" but still are a committed Jew? > Orthodox communities such as Boro Park, Highland Park, Lakewood, > Fair Lawn, make the job a bit easier (but not entirely so!). > There is Orthodoxy's commitment to education in yeshivot to mini- > mize "contamination" from the goyishe world. But Orthodox day > schools seem to be growing away from non-Orthodox Jews; the feed- > back I'm getting from people who have kids in Hillel in Passaic > and Yavneh in Paramus is that these schools are increasingly > hostile to kids from homes where the parents are not completely ob- > servant (whatever "completely" means), and there are frictions de- > veloping among kids and groups of parents. > > Ken Wolman > whuxe!ktw I agree with you on the difficulty of raising Jewish children in a pluralistic society. That was the sensitive nerve that that original article touched. Perhaps if/as more Conservative parents choose Orthodox day schools the situation will get easier for Conservative kids in Orthodox day schools. I'd like to think that we really don't need two complete Jewish day school systems to satisfy the needs of the community. Rather, I hope that Orthodox day schools and Schecters can complement each other covering the territory in a cooperative fashion. Too much to hope? I am sad to say, however, that I too have heard stories about Yavneh in Paramus. You said that the yeshivot are growing increasingly hostile to non-Orthodox kids. My more optimistic way of viewing it is that they have yet to adjust to the non-Orthodox. In our generation, all but the Orthodox went to public school and afternoon Hebrew school, right? The day schools adjusted to a homogeneous clientele. As we all grow up and decide what to do with our kids, many non-Orthodox are deciding that the public school-Hebrew school combination wasn't so good. Perhaps the already existing day schools can adjust to the change. Susan Slusky mhuxv!segs -- mhuxv!segs
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (10/03/84)
Now, this is complicated, so pay attention. A response to the Jesus Loves Me mother (whose name is Fitzsimmons) appeared in net.kids. Ken Wolman, who has read-only access to the net, saw it and mailed a respnse to Sutula. Wolman asked that I post the Sutula comment and the Wolman response to net.religion.jewish because as Wolman said, "I would like Yaqim and Dave Sherman to get their hooks into this guy. He deserves it." Please note that I am neither Fitzsimmons, nor Sutula, nor Wolman. I remain Susan Slusky mhuxv!segs From: sutula@hplvle.UUCP (sutula) Newsgroups: net.kids Subject: Re: childcare and religion Message-ID: <4700001@hplvle.UUCP> Date: Mon, 17-Sep-84 21:08:00 EDT Article-I.D.: hplvle.4700001 References: <2929@teklabs.UUCP> Organization: Hewlett-Packard - Loveland, CO > ...My 2 year old came home singing "Jesus Loves Me"... > ...I don't really want to find another babysitter, because this one is > really good, and Rebecca really enjoys being over there... > Suggestions? Just one. Re-read your own words. Does Rebecca sense something that we, as adults ignore? Perhaps Mark 10:15 could shed some light on the problem. If someone feels the need to flame at me, please use mail. Bryan Sutula hplabs!hplvla!sutula or ihnp4!hpfcla!hplvla!sutula >From ktw Tue Oct 2 15:53:20 1984 To: ihnp4!hpfcla!hplvla!sutula Subject: Little Rebecca, Mark 10:15, Jews, and net.kids With reference to your comments about little Rebecca coming home singing "Jesus Loves Me," I find your attitude somewhat suggestive of those individuals I remember from my childhood who stood on 42nd Street and 6th Avenue in New York, offering a free copy of the New Testament to "any Jewish person who promises to read it." I question very seriously whether the entry of a Jewish child into Heaven is guaranteed only under the protecting wings of the teacher whom you choose freely to believe is your savior and messiah. There's a problem, however, Mr. Sutula. Rebecca's mother does not believe that the individual in question is her savior or the savior of her child. Neither do I. Neither do a lot of people in this world who identify themselves with a history, religion and people that have survived the efforts of Crusaders, evangelists, mobs, Islam, Hitler and Stalin to destroy or convert them to a "better" way of thinking and worshipping God. Are we a "stiff-necked people," Mr. Sutula? I hope so. I hope, too, that little Rebecca's mother becomes more aware of her magnificent heritage and faith, and is therefore better equipped to deal with the kind of nauseating self-righteousness you seem to espouse. Do not hide your anti-Semitism behind a Bible, sir; you do no credit to yourself, your faith, or your messiah in the process. Kenneth Wolman Bell Communications Research Morristown, NJ whuxe!ktw -- mhuxv!segs
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/09/84)
I corresponded with Fitzsimmons back when she was pretending to be a non-Jew who wished to attend an Hagadah (Seder). I have the impression a large part of her Judaism is proving to non-Jews that Jews and non-Jews have no real differences in culture or in outlook. I am unsurprised that her daughter comes home singing Christian songs. As for not sending Jews to Jewish school (and I mean real ones not the Soloman Schechter or other Westernizing types), money is a consideration but not a big one since the really Jewish schools grant scholarships. As for the arguement about learning to live with other peoples, this is specious. A young child has to learn how to be Jewish first. A person secure in his identity can probably deal with others more competently. People like Fitzsimmons do not send their children to Jewish schools because as the children learn more about Yahadut (yiddishkeit, Giudezmo) the children will make the parents' ignorance painfully clear, the children will demand that their parents act like Jews and consequently the assimilation of the parents will be disturbed. Not surprisingly my correspondence with Fitzsimmons was not incredibly friendly but it is hard to argue sub rosa. If she has the correspondence, she may post it to the net.