jtc78@ihuxm.UUCP (Mike Cherepov) (10/16/84)
Oh well,
It's time to write a long one:
Using Martillo's logic one can decide that, say, earthquakes are
more anti-semitic then tidal waves because earthquakes kill more
Jews. But the truth is that earthquakes kill more people of all sorts.
Ridiculous as it may sound that almost exactly duplicates some of
Martillo's arguments (to be examined below).
There are two points I would like to make up front.
1) In determining what "being a Jew" means I put more (but not all) emphasis
on self-awareness and origin then on practicing Judaism.
I totally missed that discussion here and do not know what the
majority thinks, but debating this is a huge issue all by
itself and should be treated separately.
2) I think that in deciding to what extend an individual
or a society is anti-something (e.g. anti-semitic) the
only meaningful method is to compare their attitude towards
members of the group in question to their attitude towards
other members of society. I assume that most people would
agree.
**
Martillo totally ignored my position (not to mention some facts
I supplied). My premise was to show that
under the Czars position of a Jew COMPARED to position of ethnic
Slavs was even more subordinate and
humiliating then it is under communist rule.
It is not my intention to credit communists with any "improvements".
They made life more miserable for all the peoples inside the
USSR, but in the process some of the balances shifted. I feel
that gap between rights of Jews and non-Jews has narrowed during
the Soviet rule (although now it is quickly growing again).
This is a meaningful way of comparison, more so then Martillo's
attempt to use numbers of victims because:---->
amount of anti-semitism is determined by deviation of standards applied
to Jews from the standards applied to the population in general.
what do we know about the latter!!?
Looking a bit further, we ultimately stumble into that same question.
Is being the first man in a village better then second man in a city?
Projecting that onto the situation in question I go along with
that statement. Improvements are valuable inasmuch as they put an
individual ahead of his/her peers. Would you prefer to have IQ
of 160 where 100 is average, or 200 where it is 310 (and therefore
be a moron)? Well, example is silly, but gives the drift:
"better" means to me "better if compared to
how others are". There are limits to that too (being a foreman in
concentration camp is worse then being a plain laborer at large).
But this is a arguable position and also should be discussed
separately.
Now to Martillo's arguments:
> I showed the articles on Czarist versus Soviet treatment of Jews to
> members of the Russian Jewish community in New York and Boston. If any
> one wants phone numbers, I can give via private mail.
> The results:
I hope you have a statistically meaningful sample of those members.
I probably can give you a list of members of Russian Jewish community
that is at least 20 times as big as yours (starting with myself),
comes complete with phones, addresses, and shoe sizes, and contains
people who would agree with ME. Would you trust this VusVus horde?
> Czarist Pogroms versus Yevsektsia and Stalinist Executions.
> In a typical czarist pogrom order of 20 people died.
> Over a similar time period the Yevsektsias or Stalin would order several
> hundred executions.
> Drafting of Children versus Removing children from unfit parents
> (because of Jewish identification)
> About equal numbers except that the Soviets have been more likely to
> execute or exile the parents to Siberia.
This is amazing. Don't you know that Stalin is credited with
exterminating several millions of people - mainly Russians and
other Slavs? It was a part of generally anti-people campaign,
not an anti-semitic campaign.
The drastic decline in the number of Rabbis was accompanied by
drastic decline in the numbers of Christian Orthodox priests,
Mullahs, Catholic priests, monks, nuns, etc. That was a part
of a general crackdown on religion.
I understand that you consider that a greater blow for the Jews,
but I disagree with that (rf. Point 1.).
In the 1920's and 30's there were universities, schools,newspapers,
magazines for Yiddish speaking Jews. All of that was to be squelched
later. This is not Martillo' idea of Jewish identity, but it was
about as much as any people in USSR could get. Now there are 2-3
pro-government's Yiddish publications sustained and subsidized for
propaganda purposes, which no one reads. That is a clear indication
of current anti-Jewish policy trends. I could say a lot more,
but that would bury the chances that someone
would read this monster posting.
> Attending Universities
>
> Czarists and Soviets place restrictions on Jewish attendance at
> University.
Despite the glaring discrimination (which I experienced first-hand)
the percentage of Jews who have university education is the highest
of any ethnic group in USSR. It is around 30%, is growing as older
people die, is used by Soviet propaganda to "prove" that no inequalities
exist, and might be higher in reality (judging by encounters I've had).
Some universities do not accept Jews
at all, others seem to have almost no restrictions. Of course,
there are highly unofficial "policy adjustments", and these days no
change is for the better.
> Soviet -- total destruction of the Jewish community by forbidding and
> making illegal any sort of Jewish education or Jewish observance.
This is bull. Although Judaism is more severely persecuted the any
other religion, there is a small number of synagogues (in some big
cities). Their activities are pretty much controlled, but so is
everything else. Have you heard about the story of several Pentecost
baptists who spent several years inside American embassy in Moscow
hoping to be allowed to leave the country so that they can
practice their faith?.
> Emigration
> Under the Czarists Jews were always free to leave.
> Under the Soviets even when some Jews were permitted to leave, there
> were massive restrictions.
I am almost running out of patience. NO ONE is free to leave the
USSR! In the past years some exceptions were made for Jews, Armenians,
and Germans who could show (primarily forged) invitations
from their relatives abroad. This is not an example of anti-semitism!
I knew Russians who expressed envy and bitterness about the fact
that Jews were granted such an unheard-of privilege!
> Why do Mike Musing and David Rubin believe Ignorant VusVus Fairy Tales
> about the Czarists?
I believe no tales, son, I talked to people (some of them fairly educated)
who experienced what you heard and read about Czarist Russia, I probably
read much more about it then you did, I compared that to what I know
and made my judgement.
> Assimilated Ashkenazim consider restrictions on admittance to non-Jewish
> society a most terrible form of anti-semitism. In Czarist society a Jew
> was always a Jew even after conversion. The Soviets pay lip service to
> ideas of equality and universality of human society. The low common
> vulgar VusVus, who came to the USA before the 20s who knew nothing about
> Yahadut and therefore grovelled and had no pride, psychologically found
> czarist restrictions unbearable.
Is not that what I said? Jews even were not allowed to settle in or enter
many areas of the country including all major cities. Also, see flame.
> Just a note on general (not related to Jews) Czarist and Soviet
> brutality. In the 19th century the Czarist empire was primitive and
> barabic yet less than 30 were executed by the government. Since the
> beginning of the Soviet Regime (less than one hundred years ago) on the
> order of 20 million people are estimated to have been murdered by the
> government.
See my understanding of anti-semitism.
I feel that it is a reasonable one and would hold on to it unless
shown something better.
This brutality was, just like you said, NOT RELATED TO JEWS,
therefore, not specifically anti-semitic.
There is no way in the world I could give anyone the idea that I
defend any of these atrocities, if only that person would bother
to listen to me.
> The hallmark of the VusVus is not letting reality interfere with his
> world view.
**************************** Promised Flame:
Annoying: Martillo defined VusVus as a derogatory epithet for
an Yiddish speaker or a DESCENDANT (italicized by me, M.C.)
of Yiddish speakers.
Frankly, I think that there is nothing disgraceful in being
a descendant of anybody, even if that ancestor was a bigoted snob
of a kind we see on the net.
But if somebody told me a derogatory epithet for a Sefardi Jew
or a descendant of Sefardi Jews I would gladly reserve it to label
Mr. Martillo and his opinions the way he labels me and my thoughts
without bothering to look.
****************** conclusion
I feel very uncomfortable about trying to write about this as
some people could still be misguided enough to interpret this
as a piece in support of Soviet something-or-other.
But I think I expressed my point well enough (although too
loquaciously).
It is just that I hate prejudice and pesumptuous misrepresentations,
whether they are generated by elders in Kremlin or Torah-sages
in Massachusetts.
Mike Cherepov (musing no more)
flames and kudos to - ihlpm!chermartillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (11/02/84)
>Martillo totally ignored my position (not to mention some facts >I supplied). My premise was to show that >under the Czars position of a Jew COMPARED to position of ethnic >Slavs was even more subordinate and >humiliating then it is under communist rule. There was a certain tiny fraction of the lowest most ignorant (but sometimes very wealthy) Russian Jews who were extremely humiliated that they could not marry into the Czarist Aristocracy as easily as similarly contemptible Jews in Germany could marry into the German Aristocracy. Personally, I would not have wanted to associate with such Jews and cannot fault disdain of these people. Therefore, we learn out that the refusal of czarist aristocracy to intermarry with the most contemptible of Russian Jews or to accept them as equals is somehow worse than the almost total annihilation of any functioning Russian Jewish community. >It is not my intention to credit communists with any "improvements". >They made life more miserable for all the peoples inside the >USSR, but in the process some of the balances shifted. I feel >that gap between rights of Jews and non-Jews has narrowed during >the Soviet rule (although now it is quickly growing again). There were a few years early in communist rule when the communists had need of officials and functionaries and had to accept Jews in these positions. During this period, such quisling Jews were able to act almost as if they were ethnic Russians of course for the vast majority who were not so interested, acting Jewish was quickly discouraged and made illegal (though I will concede probably the quislings in the Yevsektsias [Jewish sections] were probably worse to ordinary Jews than ethnic Russian communists). >This is a meaningful way of comparison, more so then Martillo's >attempt to use numbers of victims because:----> >amount of anti-semitism is determined by deviation of standards applied >to Jews from the standards applied to the population in general. > what do we know about the latter!!? >Looking a bit further, we ultimately stumble into that same question. >Is being the first man in a village better then second man in a city? >Projecting that onto the situation in question I go along with >that statement. Improvements are valuable inasmuch as they put an >individual ahead of his/her peers. Would you prefer to have IQ >of 160 where 100 is average, or 200 where it is 310 (and therefore >be a moron)? Well, example is silly, but gives the drift: >"better" means to me "better if compared to >how others are". There are limits to that too (being a foreman in >concentration camp is worse then being a plain laborer at large). >But this is a arguable position and also should be discussed >separately. I suppose Cherepov would claim there was no antisemitism in Spain after the expulsion because Canon law was applied equally upon the old Christian and new Christian populations. >Now to Martillo's arguments: >> I showed the articles on Czarist versus Soviet treatment of Jews to >> members of the Russian Jewish community in New York and Boston. If any >> one wants phone numbers, I can give via private mail. >> The results: >I hope you have a statistically meaningful sample of those members. >I probably can give you a list of members of Russian Jewish community >that is at least 20 times as big as yours (starting with myself), >comes complete with phones, addresses, and shoe sizes, and contains >people who would agree with ME. Would you trust this VusVus horde? I also can provide expert opinion from members of the Slavics department at Harvard. There were enough Russian Jews who came to the US that some statistical outliers as well as KGB agents could appear in the population. While I do not know an immense number of Russian Jews, my father who is a Russian speaker (he spent part of WWII in Russia) and who has worked with Russian Jews collected a lot of data suggesting that while most Russian Jews are worthy of contempt for the ignorance of Yahadut and for their generally boorish slavic behavior (and are really not worth the money which the American Jewish community spends on them), Russian Jews are also on the whole extremely materialistic, anti-Soviet and generally very right-wing. Several of your articles suggest that you and probably your diverge strongly from the norm. >> Czarist Pogroms versus Yevsektsia and Stalinist Executions. >> In a typical czarist pogrom order of 20 people died. >> Over a similar time period the Yevsektsias or Stalin would order several >> hundred executions. >> Drafting of Children versus Removing children from unfit parents >> (because of Jewish identification) >> About equal numbers except that the Soviets have been more likely to >> execute or exile the parents to Siberia. >This is amazing. Don't you know that Stalin is credited with >exterminating several millions of people - mainly Russians and >other Slavs? I was referring to officially ordered executions by Stalin and the Yevsektsias. Actually, you are right the Czarist pogroms since they were not officially ordered for specific individuals are more comparable to the mass exterminations. It was a part of generally anti-people campaign, >not an anti-semitic campaign. Again the point is irrelevant. Spain probably burnt more sincere Catholics than secret Jews. This does not mean they were not antisemitic even though one could probably likewise claim Spain was basically antipeople. >The drastic decline in the number of Rabbis was accompanied by >drastic decline in the numbers of Christian Orthodox priests, >Mullahs, Catholic priests, monks, nuns, etc. That was a part >of a general crackdown on religion. By this reasoning, in Argentina the torturers of desaparados were not antisemitic because they also tortured Latinos (probably more than they tortured Jews). >I understand that you consider that a greater blow for the Jews, >but I disagree with that (rf. Point 1.). I have a low opinion of the Ashkenazi shitah but some the greatest centers of Jewish learning developed and flourished under the Czars. These centers were totally wiped out by the Soviets. It was a greater blow for Jews because it struck at Jews everywhere not just at Soviet Jews. >In the 1920's and 30's there were universities, schools,newspapers, >magazines for Yiddish speaking Jews. Since the Soviets were consolidating there power, they were willing to make such concessions especially since at the early period the Soviets required the technical expertise of many Jews. Lenin had even before the revolution developed a whole ideology to deny Jews Jewish identity. And Marxist are like Christians and Muslims doctrinal antisemites. I am not impressed that they treated Jews decently because the leaders were worried they could not yet get away with treating them rotten. > All of that was to be squelched >later. This is not Martillo' idea of Jewish identity, but it was >about as much as any people in USSR could get. Now there are 2-3 >pro-government's Yiddish publications sustained and subsidized for >propaganda purposes, which no one reads. That is a clear indication >of current anti-Jewish policy trends. I could say a lot more, >but that would bury the chances that someone >would read this monster posting. >> Attending Universities >> >> Czarists and Soviets place restrictions on Jewish attendance at >> University. >Despite the glaring discrimination (which I experienced first-hand) >the percentage of Jews who have university education is the highest >of any ethnic group in USSR. It is around 30%, is growing as older >people die, is used by Soviet propaganda to "prove" that no inequalities >exist, and might be higher in reality (judging by encounters I've had). >Some universities do not accept Jews >at all, others seem to have almost no restrictions. Of course, >there are highly unofficial "policy adjustments", and these days no >change is for the better. I vaguely remember statistics showing Jewish percent of university students of comparable magnitude (and rising on the margin). The percentage rose to 30% as a continuation of czarist trends and only over the last generation have the soviets been able to significantly reverse this trend. >> Soviet -- total destruction of the Jewish community by forbidding and >> making illegal any sort of Jewish education or Jewish observance. >This is bull. Although Judaism is more severely persecuted the any >other religion, there is a small number of synagogues (in some big >cities). Their activities are pretty much controlled, but so is >everything else. Have you heard about the story of several Pentecost >baptists who spent several years inside American embassy in Moscow >hoping to be allowed to leave the country so that they can >practice their faith?. The existence of synagogues is irrelevant. One can be perfectly correct in observance without going to synagogue. From a Jewish point of view (which is probably alien to Cherepov) Miqwa'ot (ritual baths) are much more important. Judaism does not function without a community and the Jewish community does not exist without observance of the mitswot (commandments). The Soviet authorities effectively stopped all shohtim and sofrim outside of the oriental areas. Jewish education generally falls under categories of parasitism and anti-soviet activities. >> Emigration >> Under the Czarists Jews were always free to leave. >> Under the Soviets even when some Jews were permitted to leave, there >> were massive restrictions. >I am almost running out of patience. NO ONE is free to leave the >USSR! In the past years some exceptions were made for Jews, Armenians, >and Germans who could show (primarily forged) invitations >from their relatives abroad. This is not an example of anti-semitism! >I knew Russians who expressed envy and bitterness about the fact >that Jews were granted such an unheard-of privilege! So what. Non-Jews except for privileged upper-middle classes were not free to leave czarist Russia. I recently read an article describing how the HIAS (Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society) in the early 1900's aided Russian non-Jews who came to the USA for spite because the Czarist government had made formal diplomatice protest for admitting Russian peasants. The Czarist policy was founded on a profound dislike of Jews. The Soviets for a time reverted to Czarist policy and Cherepov claims this is not antisemitism. >> Why do Mike Musing and David Rubin believe Ignorant VusVus Fairy Tales >> about the Czarists? >I believe no tales, son, I talked to people (some of them fairly educated) >who experienced what you heard and read about Czarist Russia, I probably >read much more about it then you did, I compared that to what I know >and made my judgement. Such beliefs expressed verbally or written evince need for self-justification of behavior which lead to a much worse situation. No one can argue that under the Czars the Jewish community grew and Jewish learning flourished while now the Jewish population shrinks (there is no Jewish community outside of oriental areas) and Jewish learning is non-existant. The American descendents of Russian Jews have also shown similar capacity for belief divorced from reality. The Rosenbergs served the soviets even as more and more evidence of Soviet mistreatment of Jews became available. Then when the Rosenbergs were caught spying large parts of the Jewish community saw antisemtism in the trial and execution of people who were probably hayyab mitah (liable to execution) under Jewish law. >> Assimilated Ashkenazim consider restrictions on admittance to non-Jewish >> society a most terrible form of anti-semitism. In Czarist society a Jew >> was always a Jew even after conversion. The Soviets pay lip service to >> ideas of equality and universality of human society. The low common >> vulgar VusVus, who came to the USA before the 20s who knew nothing about >> Yahadut and therefore grovelled and had no pride, psychologically found >> czarist restrictions unbearable. >Is not that what I said? Jews even were not allowed to settle in or enter >many areas of the country including all major cities. Also, see flame. Unfortunately the tiny detestable minority who wanted to assimilate into Russian slavic society were the noisiest and most articulate in languages spoken by non-Jews. >> Just a note on general (not related to Jews) Czarist and Soviet >> brutality. In the 19th century the Czarist empire was primitive and >> barabic yet less than 30 were executed by the government. Since the >> beginning of the Soviet Regime (less than one hundred years ago) on the >> order of 20 million people are estimated to have been murdered by the >> government. >See my understanding of anti-semitism. >I feel that it is a reasonable one and would hold on to it unless >shown something better. >This brutality was, just like you said, NOT RELATED TO JEWS, >therefore, not specifically anti-semitic. >There is no way in the world I could give anyone the idea that I >defend any of these atrocities, if only that person would bother >to listen to me. The Spanish slaughtered millions of Indians, enslaved hundreds of thousands of blacks and murdered 100's of thousands of non-Jews who qualified for a limpieza de sangre pura. Your arguments imply the Spanish were not antisemitic. >> The hallmark of the VusVus is not letting reality interfere with his >> world view. >**************************** Promised Flame: > >Annoying: Martillo defined VusVus as a derogatory epithet for > an Yiddish speaker or a DESCENDANT (italicized by me, M.C.) > of Yiddish speakers. > Frankly, I think that there is nothing disgraceful in being > a descendant of anybody, even if that ancestor was a bigoted snob > of a kind we see on the net. Yes, you can tell this to all the Russian Jewish scum in Israel who treated Sefardic Jews rotten because of their ancestry and because they acted like Jews and not like primitive slavic barbarian peasants which was the goal in behavior for most of the Russian Jews who came to Israel. > But if somebody told me a derogatory epithet for a Sefardi Jew > or a descendant of Sefardi Jews I would gladly reserve it to label > Mr. Martillo and his opinions the way he labels me and my thoughts > without bothering to look. Actually I bothered to look and was disgusted. The most intelligent Russian Jews seem to become disgusted with the behavior and beliefs of most Russian Jews. But I found Hateshuba by Brovender excellent and I have been very impressed by Kazhdan at Harvard. I have seen bemoaned in the Talmud that scholars have children who grow up to be ignoramuses and that `am ha'aretz produce great scholars. People can transcend their origins. Most Russian Jews are not. >****************** conclusion