yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/06/84)
Yoaqim's article: even celebration of a "secular" holiday could easily be (a part of) apostacy. For this reason I am unpersuaded by Yirmiyahu ben David's diatribes against prayer in the classroom. Exposure to secular humanism which tends to emphasize the nonimportance of religion is very likely to lead to apostacy. ******************************** Yiri's response: How do you harmonize separatism with being FOR praying together with Christians? I surely fail to understand your reasoning. Surely you don't imagine that ALL Jews are in classrooms having NO Christians? In Israel, I am FOR prayer in classrooms... but not here. Exposure to praying WITH Christians seems far worse to me than even secularism. In point of fact, I agree with you about secularism. I hope you are not taking the elitist position that those who find themselves in classrooms with Christians are not Jews, or are Jews who deserve it, or some such haughty notion. ******************************** Yoaqim's article: There is also a problem with celebrating a Jewish holiday in a way similar to a non-Jewish holiday. Most recently this is a problem with Hanukkah. I am often amused to think that those types of Jews who would imitate the "secular" observance of Christmas in Hanukkah are precisely the type of Jews whose throats the Hashmonaim would have cut. ******************************** Yiri's response: To some extent I not only see your point, but I've felt the same way for some time. On the other hand, if one searches deeply enough, almost any practice in Judaism can be shown to have pagan or secular precursors (whether or not they are valid is an entirely different matter). If one therefore uses precursors as the sole consideration, we wouldn't be able to observe many of the things that all Jews accept as essential to Judaism. This raises a deeper issue. It is not enough to make a superficial judgement on such things. When is there 'sufficient' distance from such secular/pagan practices that a given practice would not be in contradiction to Judaism? Bringing a Khanukah 'bush' in and decorating it is obviously imitating the secular observance. On the other hand, suppose one wants to make a Khanukah menorah garnished with colored lights and ornaments? I suggest the criticisms should be weighed against the benefits. In my opinion, Jewish children would not be harmed by taking pride in their menorah even moreso than Christians do in their decorations, etc. I would go so far as to say that I think it would be beneficial for Jewish children to be able to take such pride in Judaism and Jewish values rather than envying deep in themselves the colored lights and glitter of Christmas celebrations. You can attempt to legislate and impose how adults are 'supposed' to feel and behave... but you cannot legilsate how a child is to feel. Judaism should be competitive with the other religions, it is superior to them - and ought not to appear inferior without good reason. I don't see good reason here. What I see is rabbinic obduracy and inflexibility characteristic of medieval and 19th century perceptions. To me, one of the most important considerations is that I don't believe that Jews can afford to ALLOW themselves to be precluded from some otherwise healthy Jewish celebration solely on the basis that some other religion already has a practice which has parallels. I think that begins to get fanatical. I agree with Yoaqim that assimilation and apostasy are something to be carefully avoided... and also that the tendencies are far more insidious than frequently supposed. Nevertheless, I think that one can still be too fanatical here as well and, more importantly, that fanaticism can cause Jews to turn away and cause more damage than the supposed ills feared by the fanatic. I strongly feel/fear that the intransigency of orthodoxy in the areas of anti-intellectualism and extra-Torah legislation/imposition/fanaticism will continue to cause increasing numbers of Jews to become 'secular' Jews when they might otherwise have continued to be observant within more intelligent limits ... still within Torah but not so fanatic of an interpretation. ******************************* Yoaqim's article: There is a problem when Ashkenazim imitate the Mardi Gras with Purim and also because many Lenten customs have crept into Ashkenazi Passover observance. ******************************** Yiri's response: As I have said in the past, I consider myself somewhere in between S'fardi and Ashkenazi rather than taking a position on either side in opposition to the other. Yet, it seems to me that Yoaqim has made suppositions here for which he has not provided grounds. This is not logical. I see no proof that Purim imitates Mardi Gras. Simply giving parallels is not logical proof so I look forward to see how Yoaqim will go about showing this logically. The same is true of Ashkenazi Passover obserance. I am beginning to wonder if Yoaqim is motivated by bitterness and hate rather than the quest of knowledge in a scholarly manner and the pursuit of healing and building a stronger Am Ekhad which includes both S'fardim and Ashkenazim? I challenge both Yoaqim and the Ashkenazim to try harder to bring out the good points in each other and promote mutual harmony and respect. Though I don't agree with Yoaqim on a couple of points here, I think he has contributed some things which deserve thought and I am often in agreement with him. **********************************