rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (11/02/84)
Re: Halloween, a brief history
First, Halloween is not a Chrsitian holiday.
The roots of Halloween go back to the Druids and their
god Samhain (sp?), lord of the dead. On this evening
the spirits were allowed to come back and haunt the living
and they required a bribe from those they haunted. You know,
"Trick or treat !" except that the "tricks" were your babies would be
stillborn or your animals would die or your ground would be cursed.
The "treats" were sometimes human sacrifice ( children, virgins)
to protect the community.
Further, Oct 31 is big with those who practice witchcraft.
Sort of their New Year's Eve.
The original ploy by the Church was to counter Halloween by moving
All Saint's Day from the Summer ( June, I think ) to Nov 1.
(Fair enough that the word Halloween is a contraction of All Hallows
Eve a reference to All Saints Day - Nov 1)
The Church (RC) was originally vigorously opposed to the Occultic
and demonic characteristics and practices of Halloween. Many Protestant
and Independent Christian groups still are. Some like the fellowship
I belong to offers an alternative to our (and the community's) children.
We decorate our building and grounds with booths and games. Good times
and treats which we call a Hallelujah Party are offered without witches,
goblins, demons, et al.
Jews have a similar good time for children don't they ? Isn't it called
Purim celebrating Queen Esther's saving the Jews from the evil Haman ?
(In the Spring isn't it ?)
If I've again exposed my non-Jewish background and ignorance on this
item, please forgive ( you too Yiri ! :-)).
The bottom line is observant Christians have no real part in the
"Halloween" celebration as we normally see it. Of the major holidays
that are linked with the pagan past (Christmas - Saturnalia, Easter -
Ishtar, Ashtoreth, etc Spring Fertility Rites) Halloween is the only
one with blatantly occultic and demonic symbolism recognized as such
by the culture. For instance, do you think most Gentiles realize
that bringing a tree into the house (Christmas tree) derives from
a pagan custom to appease the woods elves (or whatever) ? Probably
not. However, most are familiar in some degree with witches, demons,
ghouls, goblins, spells,... ad nauseam.
Many Christians do not believe in symbolism evolution that Steve
mentions. (Us retard fundamentalists, no doubt)
We believe that the demonic part of the spirit world is a real and
negative force in the Universe. We who claim to be children of light
should not actively support the kingdom of darkness.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/04/84)
Trying to be gentle... Purim, as you noted, is of Jewish origins. This makes comparison of Christian/pagan holidays with Jewish Purim a non-valid comparison. The background of Halloween and Christianity is not new information to me and I don't think the Jewish net is the appropriate forum for a treatise on what seemed to me a topic which should be of interest to Christians and is rather irrelevant to Jews. You are correct, but it just isn't of any Jewish interest I don't think... and this is a Jewish net. If one of us made a slip regarding Christianity and Halloween, it was merely in passing and of no great consequence in the overall scheme of Judaism one way or the other. You may disagree with us, but when it comes to Christianity my per- sonal feeling is that it is a topic for net.religion rathat than net.religion. jewish. I also think it would have done more good since it is not we (hopefully) who are involved in either aspect (Halloween or Christianity). So, no sarcasm, no blasting, etc. Just a personal thought that net.relgion.jewish is for articles of predominantly Jewish interest. Other articles are more appro- priately posted on net.religion.
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (11/04/84)
As a non-Jew I am somewhat reluctant to post to this group, but the
discussion of Jews and Halloween seems to be taking place only here,
and I have an anecdote and a question --
In the predominately Jewish community in which I grew up, Halloween was
not celebrated. Rather, the night *before* Halloween was declared
"beggar's night" and the traditional "trick-or-treat" activities took
place on that night. No explanation for this was ever given me, and
in fact I was well into my teens before I knew that this might be pecu-
liar. I merely thought the customs were different in different parts
of the country. From recent discussions, I suspect some would argue
that this rewriting of custom represent a very thinly veiled effort at
assimilation or christianization, and I would probably agree.
Now my question, which is not at all related to the above. What do/should
Jews who would prefer not to participate in Halloween related activities
do when confronted by trick-or-treaters? The question is only for my own
edification and closure on the discussion.
Thanks,
--
Byron C. Howes
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchyiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/05/84)
Byron asks a question which has often bothered me. What SHOULD we do when 'trick-or-treaters' come to the door. Our approach has always been to turn off the lights in the main room, retire to the bedroom or study to watch TV or whatever and not answer the door. What are some other ideas? (Giving them treats is out as I will not encourage the practice.)
robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (11/06/84)
> Purim, as you noted, is of Jewish origins. This makes comparison of > Christian/pagan holidays with Jewish Purim a non-valid comparison. Is it fair to have it both ways like this? We happily point out the pagan origins of halloween, which may be immaterial, or even repugnantly false to Christians and atheists who celebrate halloween. And then we happily ignore the evidence for pagan origins of OUR holiday, which is obviously religious and not pagan in any sense. It is certainly our religious right to ignore the similarity of the names Esther and Mordecai to Ishtar and Marduk (Marduk lives?). I think we should extend similar rights to others. I'm bracing for flames on this note. I would appreciate it if some of the flames would include: - discussing the origin of the word "Esther" - discussing the origin of "Mordechai", which to me is a very strange looking Hebrew word - commenting on how ancient Marduk and Ishtar are. I will be happy to summarize to the net. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison or: decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison or (emergency): princeton!eosp1!robison
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (11/06/84)
It strikes me that the real question we're debating here is the one that Martillo has posed -- of what community are we members? Can we be members of both the American secular community and the Jewish community? I think we can, but one does have to be careful about where to draw the line. A non-Jewish friend was utterly astounded at how vehemently I insisted that a Jew would *not* have Christmas lights on his house. "But it's just a seasonal decoration," she said...
judah@hou2h.UUCP (J.KAMINETSKY) (11/07/84)
To: houxm!mhuxj!aluxp!aluxe!mhuxi!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!eagle!ulysses!burl!clyde!bonnie!akgua!mcnc!duke!ucf-cs!yiri Subject: Re: Halloween and Jews (and Christians) References: <1651@ucf-cs.UUCP> the original question was: "Is there anything antisemitic or unjewish about Haloween?" It a politete and objective way for me to find out if there was any truth that Haloween was a traditional day for murder of Jews & porgroms. It seems it is not true. You can bury your head in the sand like an ostrich if you wan't - not me. The more I know about the rest of the world the bvettebetter prepared I am to deal with it. Hopefully, in a peaceful way, if possoble. But in anyway necessary. Was the bombing of a synagogue in Brooklyn related to Halowween. Should we have been prepared and done ... what,.. Idont'I'm not sure. P.S. the question was posted to net.religion also. All comments - there were many - concur that there is nothing anti-semeiticitic in the backround of Halowween. Of course, if there was a group "net.jewish" without the religion - I wish there were - I might havew posted it there instead. I'm not vwery interested in religion per se, but certainly I anm Jesqwish and it certainly does have meaning & significance devioid of religion. Lucky for us, it is not ancient times when religious fanctics would have had the power to stone be to death for mowing my lawn on Saturdaty. How can one pray for the coming of the Mesiah? Were it to happen, most Jews would face the death penalty. Here, I am 2 weeks into net.religion and turnig ng ugly - that's all any religion accomplishes - it gives people something to fight about. So Let me have it!!! You sanctimonious ...
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (11/07/84)
> P.S. the question was posted to net.religion also. All comments - there were > many - concur that there is nothing anti-semetic in the backround of Haloween. > Of course, if there was a group "net.jewish" without the religion - I wish there were - I might have posted it there instead. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The title of the newsgroup was discussed over one year ago and it seemed okay. A few weeks ago, the controversy over " Who is a Jew" formed most of the traffic in this newsgroup, let's not start that again. Suffice it to say that it raises many difficulties to be Jewish without a religious identity of some sort. > I'm not very interested in religion per se, but certainly I am Jewish > and it certainly does have meaning & significance devoid of religion. > Lucky for us, it is not ancient times when religious fanctics would > have had the power to stone be to death for mowing my lawn on Saturday. I seem to recall reading somewhere that if a Sanhedrin ( the ancient Jewish court of law ) imposed the death penalty once in seventy years it was a "bloody" Sanhedrin. Reading the Torah ( the old testament ) without commentary can lead you to erroneous conclusions about Jewish Law. > How can one pray for the coming of the Mesiah? By reciting a prayer called the "Amidah", which most observant Jews recite daily, is a good place to start. > Were it to happen, most Jews would face the death penalty. No, no, no, no, no! Observant Jews believe in the coming of the Messiah and the Messianic age. I do not want to go into details because it is an area that I am not really qualified to speak about but the Messianic age is supposed to be rather nice ( the world-to-come ). All of Israel and the rightous of the world have a share in the world-to-come. > Here, I am 2 weeks into net.religion and turning ugly - that's all > any religion accomplishes - it gives people something to fight about. Unfortunatly, communicating with "faceless logins" tends to bring out some of the worst in people. Many of the arguments are between people who have been on the net for quite a while, and some have actually met! Sometimes heated arguments foster understanding, sometimes not. You have to look at the context in which these exchanges are happening. Look at it as arguments, differences of opinion, etc., not fighting. > So Let me have it!!! You sanctimonious ... I've been called many things, "sanctimonious" hasn't been one of them. Besides, sanctimonious sounds like an ancient Roman name ( JULIUS SANCTIMONIOUS ) (-: (-: Shalom ( Peace ), David Seth Green {ihnp4|allegra}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/08/84)
I see no justifiable basis to discuss the origins of Esther and Mordechai basied on such flimsy parallels. That's about as logical as suggesting that Tobias reminds me of Moby which was a whale so you must be a whale named Robinson (which is also nearly identical to Robison). There's just no substantial basis.