dk@browngr.UUCP (David Kantrowitz) (11/01/84)
Although Halloween may have no religious significance attached to it, there is an additional Hallachic principle which celebrating the holiday violates. This is the prohibition against doing Chukash HaGoy - following the customs and practices of the nonJewish nations around you. This principle is the reason why some families I know do not celebrate Thanksgiving, or any other secular American holidays. A good reason for living by this principle is easy to explain: By avoiding the special practices of the secular world, you avoid socializing with them too intimately. If one were to go trick-or-treating, where would you go? Not to your Jewish friends, unless they were also celebrating (which is unlikely). Most of the people you meet will not be Jewish, and consequently, any long term social relationships that result will not be Jewish, and the more of these you make, the more forces start pulling you away from Judaism and into assimilation. The Jewish people have their own special times to celebrate, such as Hanukkah and Purim. The more nonJewish things you do, the less Jewish you become in all aspects of your life. This is not a paranoid fear of anything foreign; it is something which happens all the time, whether or not the victims are aware of it. Assimilation starts way before the level of intermarriage.
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (11/04/84)
I am glad Kantrowitz spooke up about Halloween. If this point had not been made, I would have eventually brought it up. Modern Western Jews have a much too limited view of what apostacy is. Genuerally Western Jews consider only conversion to Christianity apostacy. But in fact most of Jewish history has taken place in non-Christian lands. Apostacy in N. Africa for the past millenium meant conversion to Islam. But more importantly, apostacy during the hellenistic and Roman periods meant conversion to the secular humanism of Roman or Greek culture. Therefore even celebration of a "secular" holiday could easily be (a part of) apostacy. For this reason I am unpersuaded by Yirmiyahu ben David's diatribes against prayer in the classroom. Exposure to secular humanism which tends to emphasize the nonimportance of religion is very likely to lead to apostacy. There is also a problem with celebrating a Jewish holiday in a way similar to a non-Jewish holiday. Most recently this is a problem with Hanukkah. I am often amused to think that those types of Jews who would imitate the "secular" observance of Christmas in Hanukkah are precisely the type of Jews whose throats the Hashmonaim would have cut. There is a problem when Ashkenazim imitate the Mardi Gras with Purim and also because many Lenten customs have crept into Ashkenazi Passover observance.
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/04/84)
I've never seen any problem with Thanksgiving (since there was, to my knowledge, no pagan origins). I do now. We no longer will observe Thanksgiving (unless someone changes my mind again with a better argument). Hope no one has a heart attack because I learned something. And thanks for your contribution.
dxp@pyuxhh.UUCP (D Peak) (11/06/84)
Most of the responses to the original question on halloween have been
answered from a childs perspective, and that it is not a good habit
to permit jewish children to participate in halloween activities.
However, as most of us are adults (or close to it) should
a jewish family respond to neighbourhood kids "trick or treat" visits
by handing out treats or not (if one lived in a predominantly jewish
neighbourhood the question would not arise).
--
Dave Peak (pyuxhh!dxp)
"He's a legend in his own mind"rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (11/06/84)
Re: Halloween and Jews Part II
So Mr. BenDavid,... let me understand the rules of the
game. If BenDavid finds something in net.religion or
someday perhaps net.religion.christian that is incorrect
(vis a vis Jews) or worse - anti-Semitic then he is free,
NAY OBLIGATED, to skewer the offender frequently and hard.
However, as a Christian if I find something that IN MY OPINION,
is in error or offensive (to Christianity) in net.religion.jewish
then I should keep quiet about it because it was only mentioned
" in passing " and " not of interest " to Jews according to YBD.
I submit that this is prima facie evidence of a double standard.
If you're gonna zap errors and nastiness in net.anywhere than you
should expect that you will get back similar scrutiny.
To paraphrase that good old Hellenist Jewish Doctor (Luke)
"The measure you give is the measure you get back."
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (11/07/84)
In article <744@pyuxhh.UUCP> dxp@pyuxhh.UUCP (D Peak) writes: || However, as most of us are adults (or close to it) should || a jewish family respond to neighbourhood kids "trick or treat" visits || by handing out treats or not (if one lived in a predominantly jewish || neighbourhood the question would not arise). Wrong. We live in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood, but the question does arise. You'd have to live in a predominantly Orthodox neighbourhood (perhaps Boro Park or Crown Heights) for it not to arise. This year I decided that I didn't feel like having a bunch of kids demand candy from me. If I knew who they were, I'd be quite happy to tell them I'd noted their request and would deliver the candy on Purim as Mishloach Manos. But with the disguises you never know who the kids are at your door. What did I do? I turned off the lights, ignored the doorbell and read netnews in the dark. Incidentally, the rabbi of our shul, Rav David Schochet, spoke about it last Shabbos (a few days late:-). He pointed out that one should not give food to another Jew without making sure that other person will say a brocha over the food. He also made reference to the origins of Halowe'en in avodah zarah, and noted it should be avoided for that reason. Dave Sherman Toronto -- { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!dave
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (11/07/84)
[] > There is a problem when Ashkenazim imitate the Mardi Gras with Purim and > also because many Lenten customs have crept into Ashkenazi Passover > observance. Can you please clarify this for me since I don't see how us Ashkenazim " imitate the Mardi Gras " and " Lenten " customs. The reason for posting my query instead of private mail is that if I don't understand, perhaps others might not either. I welcome your clarification. Shalom, David Seth Green ..mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468 BTW, I dated a nice Sephardic ( Syrian ) girl Saturday night. Although she understands Arabic and Hebrew, she had no idea what "vusvus" means. Can you explain that? Also note that we had a great time, despite my ashkenazic background.
elb@hou5e.UUCP (Ellen Bart) (11/07/84)
I do not celebrate Halloween or NewYears but I'm not sure I agree that Thaksgiving falls in the same category. As far as I can tell, Thanksgiving celebrates the ability of the first colonists to survive in the new land. Since I benefit from that new land, why shouldn't I be happy about it's founding? Saying that the first settlers were anti-Jewish is not an arguement that would sway me because I'm not remembering the values of the first settlers, but rather the establishement of a country from which I now benefit. I solicit responses that would convince me either way. Ellen Bart
robison@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (11/08/84)
In article <62@mit-athena.ARPA> martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) writes: >I am glad Kantrowitz spooke up about Halloween. Nice pun. - Toby Robison (not Robinson!) allegra!eosp1!robison or: decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison or (emergency): princeton!eosp1!robison