rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (10/19/84)
I recently posted this article which if read carefully ASKS for an opinion of those who would know about this subject (i.e. learned Jews). [Bob] >Subject: Polygamy and Judaism > >I have noticed in passing remarks by Mr Martillo that >Sefardim still practice polygamy in some parts of the >world and I take it that the rest of the Jewish groups >practice monogamy. Now if we start with Genesis >2:24( *NOTE* Observant Jews please don't be offended >that I don't know how to reference the text but by the >Christian divisions ..2:24 etc.) >we note that "That is why a man leaves his father and >mother and is united with his wife and they become one." >(TEV). >This verse directly follows the creation of Eve. >I would say this is a pretty strong endorsement (in context) >of monogamy. Yet later in the Scriptures we find many of >the leaders like David and Solomon who are lavish polygamists >(Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines.) >God seems not to take official notice of this (like He did >when David seduced/"raped" Bathsheba). > >What say the learned of Judaism on this topic ? [Mr BenDavid replies] >>I have the distinct impression that you can't read the first word of the >>Bible because it is in Hebrew - so having the presumptuousness to try >>and tell us what it says is tragi-comical. Let me say that I am truly impressed by Mr BenDavid's scholarship (however I am sure he doesn't care one way or t'other). He appears to have spent many years developing and learning about Judaism and "pre-pagan" Christianity. He appears to be a wealthy man wrt to knowledge. However, regarding this recent submission don't you think, Yiri, you are letting your hatred for what you think are false ideas spill all over the intellectual table we have spread before us ? My question and opinion was offered with a sincere desire to learn about the Jewish understanding on this issue. I have, in this case, no "axe to grind" as you like to say. Are you so far above me Yiri that an honest question brings sneering contempt at my relative lack of learning? Are you so paranoid that if you give me a reasonable answer that I will turn it against you by beating you over the head with the hated name of Jesus ? Yes indeed Rabbi, teach us of love, compassion, justice, and mercy which are all evident even in my brain damaged version of the Scriptures. Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
rib@edsel.UUCP (RI Block) (10/22/84)
Jews of European origin (e.g. Ashkenazim) follow a post-talmudic decision know as the Takana of Rabenu Gershom which forbade polygamy for the next 1000 years. This decision was never accepted among Sefardim and technically has expired although it is now followed because it is accepted custom. My understanding has alway been that Rabenu Gershom (light of the exile) promolgated this decision because he decided it was a necessary condition for the continued existence of Jews in Christian countries. There are several examples of accepted polygamy in Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, Writings) including some that drew negative rabbinic comment. The extant prohibitions include marrying two sisters and favoring the son (as far as the birthright) of the more-beloved wife.
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/29/84)
>Jews of European origin (e.g. Ashkenazim) follow a post-talmudic decision >know as the Takana of Rabenu Gershom which forbade polygamy for the next >1000 years. This decision was never accepted among Sefardim and technically >has expired although it is now followed because it is accepted custom. I have in the past tried to find info about this tikun and the gathering of Ashkenazi rabbis which accepted it. I have been unsuccessful in finding contemporary evidence. The story has all the characteristics of a myth used to justify accepting an incorrect practise. Example: we know very little about Gershom and have very few of his writings but he is reputed to be very great and to have extablished the system of study in France. This is just the sort of person to attribute basis for such a practise. Anyone know some hard and fast evidence. >My understanding has alway been that Rabenu Gershom >(light of the exile) promolgated this decision because >he decided it was a necessary condition for the continued existence >of Jews in Christian countries. Worthwhile to remember that if there was such a tikun approximately 98% of the Jewish people rejected it at the time it was made. And it was only accepted by the rabbis of the intellectual backwaters of the Jewish world. >There are several examples of accepted polygamy in Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, >Writings) including some that drew negative rabbinic comment. The extant >prohibitions include marrying two sisters and favoring the son (as far >as the birthright) of the more-beloved wife.
lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (10/30/84)
Forgive a Gentile for intruding, but did not Moses command in
Deuteronomy 17:17 that a king was to be monogamous? Moreover, Moses'
reason why was made evident in Solomon.
--
The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford
{amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab
You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (10/31/84)
If I'm not mistaken, some of the quotes are from my previous article and some are from a follow-up to it by someone else. They really should be kept straight as to who is being quoted. My information was straight from the Encyclopedia Judaica.
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (11/01/84)
In article <1487@qubix.UUCP> lab@qubix.UUCP (Larry Bickford) writes:
~| Forgive a Gentile for intruding, but did not Moses command in
~| Deuteronomy 17:17 that a king was to be monogamous?
Nope. The verse is translated (Soncino) as, "Neither shall he multiply
wives to himself..." (v'lo yarbeh lo nashim). Rashi, quoting the Talmud,
notes that the maximum number allowed was eighteen. Nowhere does the
pasuk indicate a specific maximum, and certainly not a specific maximum
of one. "Yarbeh" comes from the root "rov", which means "many"; that is,
one should not have "many" (>18) wives.
Note that the previous verse (17:16) commands that a king "not multiply
horses to himself", and the same word "yarbeh" is used. I have never heard
it suggested that this means a king may have only one horse.
Dave Sherman, Toronto
--
{ allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!davedk@browngr.UUCP (David Kantrowitz) (11/04/84)
No. It says "He should not have many wives." This does not mean "one wife", but rather not too many (traditionally understood to mean <= 18 wives)
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/05/84)
An interesting question has come to mind on this subject. Since the Arab population in Israel is reproducing at a rate I think about 3 times that of the Jews, is it possible that polygamy might once again be made acceptable (since there is no strong prohibition in Torah)?
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (11/06/84)
> Jews of European origin (e.g. Ashkenazim) follow a post-talmudic decision > know as the Takana of Rabenu Gershom which forbade polygamy for the next > 1000 years. This decision was never accepted among Sefardim and technically > has expired although it is now followed because it is accepted custom. > > My understanding has alway been that Rabenu Gershom > (light of the exile) promolgated this decision because > he decided it was a necessary condition for the continued existence > of Jews in Christian countries. > > There are several examples of accepted polygamy in Tanakh (Torah, Prophets, > Writings) including some that drew negative rabbinic comment. The extant > prohibitions include marrying two sisters and favoring the son (as far > as the birthright) of the more-beloved wife. The takana was for only 500 years and has therefore expired. R. Gershom lived in the 11th century as I recall ( or later ). *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (11/07/84)
> An interesting question has come to mind on this subject. Since the Arab > population in Israel is reproducing at a rate I think about 3 times that > of the Jews, is it possible that polygamy might once again be made > acceptable (since there is no strong prohibition in Torah)? Why would polygamy lead to a higher Jewish birth rate? There is just about one Jewish woman available per Jewish man. It seems that polygamy would lead to many unmarried Jewish men and no change or a decrease in the number of children per Jewish woman. -- mhuxv!segs
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (11/09/84)
In article <1665@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes: || An interesting question has come to mind on this subject. Since the Arab || population in Israel is reproducing at a rate I think about 3 times that || of the Jews, is it possible that polygamy might once again be made || acceptable (since there is no strong prohibition in Torah)? Torah prohibitions only affect observant Jews, and observant Jews (inside and outside Israel) are already having lots of kids, so it wouldn't make a difference. Besides, as Susan noted, there's no particular shortage of Jewish men in Israel. Dave Sherman Toronto -- { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!dave