jtc78@ihuxm.UUCP (Mike Cherepov) (11/12/84)
Mr. Martillo's article came here slightly(?) garbled by transmission.
Nevertheless, I think there is enough material (306 lines) to
warrant a reply based on what I've seen.
Again, Mr. Martillo comes scoring heavily while examining my:
brief position statements? No, that's not done.
arguments to support those statements? No, I do not think so (see below why).
failure to understand his basic premises? No.
ancestry? Yes!!!!!!!
Welcome to samples:
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>while most Russian Jews are worthy of contempt for the ignorance of
>Yahadut and for their generally boorish slavic behavior (and are really
>not worth the money which the American Jewish community spends on them)
>Russian Jews are also on the whole extremely materialistic, anti-Soviet
>and generally very right-wing. Several of your articles suggest that
>you and probably your diverge strongly from the norm.
>The American descendents of Russian Jews have also shown similar
>capacity for belief divorced from reality. The Rosenbergs served the
>soviets even as more and more evidence of Soviet mistreatment of Jews
>became available. Then when the Rosenbergs were caught spying large
> The most intelligent
>Russian Jews seem to become disgusted with the behavior and beliefs of
>most Russian Jews.
>People can transcend their origins. Most Russian Jews are not.
>Yes, you can tell this to all the Russian Jewish scum in Israel who
>treated Sefardic Jews rotten because of their ancestry and because they
>acted like Jews and not like primitive slavic barbarian peasants which
>was the goal in behavior for most of the Russian Jews who came to
>Israel.
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I could spend hours with my eyes bulging, mouth frothing, proving to
Mr. Martillo that I am good, and that is not my goal of behavior to act
like "primitive slavic barbarian peasants". But I do not feel like it.
The reason behind it is that I (as a "Russian Jew") consider myself no
more responsible for deeds of "Russian Jewish scum in Israel" (assuming
Mr. Martillo is 100% right there), then I am (as a "Jew") responsible
for ... well, for truly eye-popping remarks Mr. Martillo makes on net.politics.
Just for reference: he said he liked Reagan for giving the "third world
savages the ass-kicking they deserve". If the man
worked for Reagan's campaign, we would've had President Fritz now.
Some folks from India, Phillipines, Africa,... had reason to be more then
slightly offended (and were).
I am not responsible for anyone but myself. All these exercises in
expressing contempt to some average Russian Jew (whether it is justified
ir not), and measuring me personally against some average Russian Jew
are TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the topic of discussion.
Only someone with very low moral principles would resort to that.
I will make reluctant attempt to examine Mr. Martillo's arguments one by one:
it looks like most of them merit no more then pity for their creator.
here we go:
******************
>Therefore, we learn out that the refusal of czarist aristocracy to
>intermarry with the most contemptible of Russian Jews or to accept them
>as equals is somehow worse than the almost total annihilation of any
>functioning Russian Jewish community.
I learn about it from Mr. Martillo. Why did he bring up that thing about
aristocracy? Besides: we mean different things by "Jewish community". I
indicated that I am willing to discuss it
separately. Trying to corrupt my position like that is indeed a cheap shot.
>I suppose Cherepov would claim there was no antisemitism in Spain after
>the expulsion because Canon law was applied equally upon the old
>Christian and new Christian populations.
There can be 2 reasons for Mr. Martillo to suppose that:
1) He needs a straw to grasp on.
2) He did not see or did not understand definition of anti-semitism I use.
>The Spanish slaughtered millions of Indians, enslaved hundreds of
>thousands of blacks and murdered 100's of thousands of non-Jews who
>qualified for a limpieza de sangre pura. Your arguments imply the
>Spanish were not antisemitic.
Mercy! I repeat: I would compare the standards applied to Spaniards
with the standards applied to Jews. No need to twist my words in
such pathetic way.
>Again the point is irrelevant. Spain probably burnt more sincere
>Catholics than secret Jews. This does not mean they were not
>antisemitic even though one could probably likewise claim Spain was
>basically antipeople.
You tell him. How did standards applied to sincere ......
>I also can provide expert opinion from members of the Slavics department
>at Harvard. There were enough Russian Jews who came to the US that some
>statistical outliers as well as KGB agents could appear in the
>population.
Was I just put into second "as well" group? Or better yet: what else
could he mean? Any why did he bring up the Rosenbergs?
>I have a low opinion of the Ashkenazi shitah but some the greatest
>centers of Jewish learning developed and flourished under the Czars.
>These centers were totally wiped out by the Soviets. It was a greater
>blow for Jews because it struck at Jews everywhere not just at Soviet
>Jews.
>The existence of synagogues is irrelevant. One can be perfectly correct
>in observance without going to synagogue. From a Jewish point of view
>(which is probably alien to Cherepov) Miqwa'ot (ritual baths) are much
>more important. Judaism does not function without a community and the
>Jewish community does not exist without observance of the mitswot
>(commandments). The Soviet authorities effectively stopped all shohtim
>and sofrim outside of the oriental areas.
Here again Mr. Martillo is trying to substitute his understanding
and priorities of Jewishness for mine, and then plug the result in my
words. No wonder result is twisted. I can discuss it SEPARATELY.
His attempts to do the substitution without explicitly stating it
represent the typical cheap shot tactics.
Every time Mr. Martillo says "from a Jewish point of view" he
should be saying "from my point of view about Jewishness".
Judging from his moral standards, conduct and ways, his views must
differ from the views of this newsgroup's majority. Well, appeal
to majority view does not mean much, but he does not have a monopoly on
"Jewish point of view".
>Jewish education generally falls under categories of parasitism and
>anti-soviet activities.
As far as I know there's been some resurgence recently. There is
no reason to go into that in full detail, but the interest of
Soviet Jews in their heritage seems to be proportional to the
degree of anti-semitic oppression.
Mr. Martillo on emigration, HOLD ON TO YOUR CHAIR:
>So what. Non-Jews except for privileged upper-middle classes were not
>free to leave czarist Russia. I recently read an article describing how
You surely can not be serious. Give me a bloody break! Can't you
understand the difference? (pardon my boorish slavic outburst).
Lenin and others were operating the whole revolutionary underground
from abroad. They were able to cross the border in both directions.
Loads of revolutionary literature were smuggled in from
Europe. Shipments of WEAPONS were smuggled in! All Lenin had to
do to get out was to cross the frozen Gulf of Finland late at night.
All he had to do to get in was to get counterfeited passport and a
hairpiece. And that's while he was on most wanted list!
Compare it to the adventures of a Soviet citizen who walked through
Finland to Sweden during nights and was hiding during daytime.
Berlin wall anybody?
And those lucky, lucky Jews are flying out in planes (well, no more).
>The Czarist policy was founded on a profound dislike of Jews. The
>Soviets for a time reverted to Czarist policy and Cherepov claims this
>is not antisemitism.
He is speaking of emigration again. No comment.
>one can argue that under the Czars the Jewish community grew and Jewish
>learning flourished while now the Jewish population shrinks (there is no
>Jewish community outside of oriental areas) and Jewish learning is
>non-existent.
Another example of parameter substitution that I pointed to previously.
Knowing some social factors that influence the birth rate can explain
some of the past and current trends in growth/decline of Jewish
population that are not dependent on anti-semitism alone.
About learning: I consider Freud and Einstein at least
as significant for Jewish history as any of the great scholars
who studied Torah. That reflects how my priorities differ from those
of Mr. Martillo. Like I said, I can discuss it separately
(and that also means separately from Rosenberg's spying).
>Actually I bothered to look and was disgusted.
It is said about my views.
I try to understand when someone disagrees with me: I can be mistaken,
after all.
But after seing the mixture of ignorance, prejudice, insults based on
origin, underhanded methods of arguing, arrogance, and misrepresentations
of my statements diplayed in the part of Mr. Martillo's article that
arrived here I can say:
You looked but could not see through the thick cloud of stereotypes
and conceit.
I am relieved that I am no more referred to as VusVus. However it
does not signify a change in Mr. Martillo's attitude as he brings
out stories about how disgusting Russian Jews are. Disgusting or not,
the only time it is appropriate to talk about it, is when the topic
of discussion warrants it. TOPIC OF DISCUSSION, not origin of
your opponent, Mr. Martillo.
Mike Cherepov
replies to ihnp4!ihuxi!lpm
P.S. I think that tone and direction of this exchange do not harmonize
with the purposes of this group. Mr. Moderator probably would have
kicked them off to net.politics. I will try to refrain from followups.
Generating articles of that size is no picnic, either.