[net.religion.jewish] Avrum

de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/16/84)

Being the son of Avrum I am curious as to the original posting that said
that it was not a legal name for a Jew.  My father and five second cousins
were all named Avrum after a mutual multi-great grandfather.  My relatives
in the Ukraine and Bessarabia were not exactly wild-eyed radicals who would
knowingly violated tradition or bubbe-meinsehs (for the uninitiated those are
grandmother's tales that have basis in fact).

If you think Avrum has problems consider Cain (a murderer), Amnon (an incestuous
rapist), or even David (a usurper, murderer, and adulterer).
														David ben Avrum (mosom!de)

teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/18/84)

> 
> Being the son of Avrum I am curious as to the original posting that said
> that it was not a legal name for a Jew.  My father and five second cousins
> were all named Avrum after a mutual multi-great grandfather.  My relatives
> in the Ukraine and Bessarabia were not exactly wild-eyed radicals who would
> knowingly violated tradition or bubbe-meinsehs (for the uninitiated those are
> grandmother's tales that have basis in fact).
> 
> If you think Avrum has problems consider Cain (a murderer), Amnon (an incestuous
> rapist), or even David (a usurper, murderer, and adulterer).
> 														David ben Avrum (mosom!de)

    The problem with Avram is that the Torah said specifically that it 
 should not be used. The others you mentioned do not have a similar
 prohibition. ( As a side point, your reason for not using certain names
 has no basis. No one is perfect, so using the name of someone who sinned
 shouldn't be considered wrong. If that was your criterion, then you'd be
 limited to the seven people of whom the G'mara said they never sinned
 ( I think the G'mara is at the end of the first chapter of Baba Kamma 
 although I'm not sure ).
    A question could be raised thoug of a person who is called Avram. Was
 the prohibition not to call a peron known as Avraham by the name Avram
 ( was the contraction prohibited ). Or was the use of the name Avram pro-
 hibited? I'm not sure. If the former is the case then naming someone Avram
 should not be wrong. However if the latter is true then the name should not
 be used.

				Eliyahu Teitz.

dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (12/23/84)

[]
> > Being the son of Avrum I am curious as to the original posting that said
> > that it was not a legal name for a Jew.  
>> 														David ben Avrum (mosom!de)
>     The problem with Avram is that the Torah said specifically that it 
>  should not be used. The others you mentioned do not have a similar
>  prohibition. 
> 				Eliyahu Teitz.

I just got out my trusty old copy of Talmud Berakhoth 13a to take a look
at the specifics.  I am going to quote directly ( since  my ancestors 
wrote the original, I assume that I am not infringing on any
copyrights ) so with some editing and without further ado:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	"Abram, the same is Abraham." At first he became father to
Aram and finally, he became father to the whole of the world. 
'Sarai, the same is Sarah'. At first she became 'my princess'
to her people and finally she became princess to the whole of the world.
Bar Qappara tought: Whoever calls Abraham Abram violates a positive
command for it is said: "Thy name shall be Abraham".  
If so similarly for one who calls Jacob Jacob.  There it is different,
because Scripture reverts to it, for it is written: "And G-d spoke
to Israel in the visions of the night, and said: Jacob, Jacob".
___________________________________________________________________


There is some controversy regarding the above and I will refer the
reader to Shulchan Aruch, O. H. 156 where it says that  to call
Abraham 'Abram' would violate both positive and negative 
commandments.  But the salient point which I think has been missed,
is that this refers *only* to the Patriarch.  The most interesting comment
that I found was that Me'am Loez says that one should be scrupulous to
carefully enunciate the name Abraham whenever it appears in our prayers
so that it not be slurred and sound like Abram;  I found nothing 
prohibiting naming regular people Abram.  This should be told to
"speed doveners" who often slur their prayers.

Did anyone find a prohibition against calling regular Abrams Abram?
Just because I didn't doesn't make it halacha.

David Seth Green  {ihnp4}!mhuxi!dsg  201-564-2000