bds@homxa.UUCP (B.STERMAN) (12/20/84)
> Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this > point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few > reasons. > > 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather > a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. > Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage > ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced > by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. > > 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly > a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat). > > There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in > detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to > get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up the > state. Okay Eliyahu, here goes. I'm going to try to deal with this fro the perspective of Jewish law. The question of whether or not an occasion is to be celebrated as a holiday is determined by the recitation (or not) of the Hallel. Let's examine the sources. Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 117a: The Rabbis say: The prophets determined that Jews say it [hallel] whenever a tragedy is averted, and when they are saved they recite it. Meggilat Taanit ch. 9: What made them decide to say the complete [hallel on Channukah]. For every victory that God provides for the Jews they offer before Him praise (hallel) and song (shira) and thanks (hoda'ah). And this is not simply aggadic. Rabbenu Yona Berachot ch. 2 (8a dafei Harif): This is the idea. The Hallel is recited when a tragedy is averted. That when all the Jews were in peril and God would make a miracle for them, they would establish a holiday and they would say Hallel and they would be required to recite a blessing over it... and that is only for a miracle that happened to the public, but for a private miracle it is not said. As it is written "When you will go to war in your land against the enemy..." Note the Ran is not talking about some supernatural kind of miracle since the quote he uses is clearly practical. Some might claim, though that not all the Jews were involved in the great victory of 1948. Horiot 3a: Rav Asi said: With regards to the establishing of law you determine based on the majority of the Jews living in Israel. And it's brought down as law, Rambam, perush hmishnayot Bechorot ch. 4: ...for the Jews living in the land of Israel, they are called the congregation (kehal). And God calls them the entire kehal, and even if there are only ten, and those outside the land are not considered. Now, the objections to reciting hallel that I have heard are: 1. The only time Hallel is said is over a victory that brings with it a spiritual revival. 2. The victory of 48 (and 67) have not lasted long enough from an historical perspective to warrant Hallel. 3. The Israelis were not religious so Hallel is inappropriate. First. There is no justification for this opinion in the sources. Also the establishment of the state of Israel brought with it the most profound revitalization (both practically and philosophically) in two thousand years. After the Holocaust many Jews decided that the Christian theological assertion that the Jew was chosen to suffer for killing Christ, was correct after all. The chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Chistianity after the war. With the establishment of Israel, Jews were able to look beyond the tragedy and regain their faith. In fact the state of Israel is an impossible theological problem for Christianity which insists that Judaism exited history when it rejected Christ (see all of Toynbee's history). Second. There is no justification for this opinion in the sources. Also, anyone who looks into the Chanukah story past what they were taught in third grade will know that the victory we celebrate lasted less than a year. Then the anti-Hasmoneans regained power. It wasn't for another ten years that Yonatan finally came into power through his brilliant political manipulations, without lifting a sword. The state of Israel has lasted a bit longer already. Third. There is no justification for this opinion in the sources. In fact the Jews of Israel are seen to be the deciding factor in legal tradition regardless of their religious status. The truth is that we who are religious should be embarrassed at the lack of support that the Zionist movement enjoyed among the religious. We complain that the government is not religious enough, yet where were we when that government was being formed? Perhaps if the religious would have had more foresight and less concern for whether or not this new Zionist movement was too 'secular', the objections that they now raise might never have come to be. You know, the medrash talks of two times when the Messiah was ready to come. Once when Moshe crossed the Red Sea with the Jews and once during the reign of Hizkiyahu. In both cases the Medrash tells us that the opportunity was wasted because the Jews did not praise God. Let me tell you something. I would rather praise God when maybe I need not, than not praise Him when I should. Every time I hear people complain that Israel is missing this or that so how can you praise God, I think it's like somebody who prays for a million dollars. When it comes down he yells to God, "Wait a minute, I wanted it in small bills." I pray that this opportunity for true redemption is not destroyed by lack of gratitude as were the previous. Baruch Sterman ihnp4!homxa!bds
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/26/84)
> > Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this > > point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few > > reasons. > > > > 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather > > a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. > > Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage > > ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced > > by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. > > > > 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly > > a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat). > > > > There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in > > detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to > > get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up the > > state. > > Okay Eliyahu, here goes. I'm going to try to deal with this fro the > perspective of Jewish law. The question of whether or not an > occasion is to be celebrated as a holiday is determined by the > recitation (or not) of the Hallel. Let's examine the sources. Okay Baruch let's deal with this from the perspective of Jewish law. You brought many impressive sources, butt none which are halacha l'maaseh ( laws to be acted upon, laws which we actually follow ). Rambam ( Maimonides ) in his Yad Hachazaka ( Mishneh Torah ), Hilchot Purim v'Channuka, Chapter 3, Halacha 6 states: Not only is the recitation of Hallel on Channuka "midivrei sofrim" ( Rabbinical ordinance with a biblical basis ), but all days when we say hallel are midivrei sofrim. The Raavad points out that it is really a biblical ordinance. The Kesef Mishnah ( R Yosef Karo, author of the Shulchan Aruch ) points out that Rambam is of the opinion that we do not recite hallel when we are saved from a tragedy unless the rabbis with a based on verses from the Torah ordain that it should be said. He, the Kesef Mishnah says that Rambam is deciding against the G'marot you brought. In fact it is a debate in the G'mara as to how to institute the saying of hallel. The Shulchan Aruch also has no mention of sayig hallel when disasters are averted or when miracles occur. So, Baruch, it is not as clear cut as you make it sound. There is good reason not to say hallel. The g'mara ( I don't remember offahnd where it is, as usual ) says not such nice things about one who says hallel when it is not necessary. So I'll stick to not saying hallel. Eliyahu Teitz. >