[net.religion.jewish] Re*5 Christmas {report} card

de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/30/84)

(Long quote at the end of article).

This debate has really blossomed.  In one of the article's, Eliyahu, you noted

that you are being called names.  I hope I am not the source, and if I am it
was unintentional.  After my initial flame (quenched by your statement that
you support the continued existance of the state of Israel), I have enjoyed an
interesting debate.  So lets continue.

I understand your differentiation between Jews and Jewish Jews (the former being
non-observant, the latter be the Torah following Jews).  I have stated before 
and repeat now, that you are creating a narrow definition for the Jewish.  As
Mr. Martillo is sure to point out, the Ashkenazim differ greatly from the 
Sfards, and both from the Falashas, the Boukharans etc.  You have chosen a
position, and said all to the Torah side of me are Jewish, and those to the
other side are not Jewish.  This is a dangerous position.  What if someone
to the Torah side makes the same pronouncement (as they surely have).  You
would be one of the apikorsim, and they would define Judaism.  Where will
this end???? (I brought up Boro Park in my previous article only in this 
context).

I fear that you misunderstood my point on Israel and the holocaust.  I intended
to say that if Israel existed, there would have been a national voice calling
for the protection of German Jewry.  The final solution was not put into place 
until 1940 when noone wanted to take the Jews from Hitler and after the
tragedies involving ships that were not allowed to dock in the US.  Hitler
was willing to send the Jews to a place out of Europe, but no-one wanted them.
If Israel had existed, someone would have taken them, as they have taken
Jews from the Arab lands, the USSR and south America.

I know who helped keep the Jews in Europe during the war and its a crime.  But,
Ze'ev Jabotinsky was viewed as a hothead and no one wanted to listen to his
pleas to take the Jews out.  If he had been Prime Minister of Israel, however...

As for the wonderful life of the Jews in Yemen and elsewhere.  True Israel
has created problems for them (whether by leftist scum or Ashkenaz deceit is
not the point).  But, to say they had a good life???  What PLO material are
you reading????  Yo, Martillo, where are you???

					David Esan

>       I never said that the people who do not observe the Torah are not Jews.
>  All I said is that they do not practice Judaism. And that to call a state 
>  Jewish it must abide by the Torah. To this idea I remain faithful I cannot
>  say how G-D will deal with any Jew. Also, not opening a refrigerator door is 
>  as much a question of Shabbat and its essence as is not working. Actually, the
>  essence of Shabbat according to the Ramban on the Torah ( Vayikra, I don't
>  remember the exact location ) is to deal in spiritual endeavors, to learn
>  Torah, and the such. He says that if a person sleeps all day on shabbat he
>  has not desecrated it but he has not fulfilled the essence of shabbat ( I
>  wrote this when we were discussing electricity and shabbat ). Another thing 
>  about shabbat. The g'mara considers one who desecrates the shabbat publicly
>  a non-Jew ( for certain laws ). A pretty strong statement. So violation
>  of the shabbat cannot be brush off with a simple "and that is the essence of
>  shabbes" .
> 
> 
>       Pikuach nefesh only applies when there is a definite danger of losing 
>  life. The signing of a piece of paper in no way saved anyone's life.  
>  So pikuach nefesh does not apply in this case. 
>       Another thing. I never said that I do not consider the establishment
>  of a state in Israel something to thank G-D for. All I said is that 
>  Israeli independence day is not a holiday. I personally feel that Yom
>  Yerushalayim, the day Jerusalem was liberated from arab hands is a more
>  appropriate day to celebrate. The g'mara ( as usual I don't remember the
>  source) already discusses the day of liberation for Jerusalem a a holiday.
> 
> 
>      This is the biggest crock I've ever heard ( to quote someone -)). Did
>  the state of Israel exist during the Holocaust? No. So it has no bearing on
>  the matter. Actually, it does. Quite a large bearing. Who prevented the
>  people from getting out of Europe. As I said in the past, read the book 
>  Perfidy, by Ben Hecht, then come back and tell me that Israel saved the 
>  Jews. 
> 
> Also, the Jews in Russia have been there since 1917, 31 years before the
>  state of Israel. So the state is really helping them. Another thing. People
>  like to shout about Russian Jewry. Emigration from Russia has trickled down
>  to next ot nothing and everyone is running about screaming. And if the 
>  Russians let out a few thousand Jews everyone will be happy and pat themselves
>  on the back about the great job they did saving Russian Jewry. How about
>  the people who are stuck without a hope of getting out. What do all hese 
>  groups do for them aside from ignore their plight. The condition of those 
>  stuck inside only gets worse for every Jew they let out. How do I know? 
>  I have a close relative who works with the Russian government to get siddurim
>  machzorim, lulavim, t'fillin and the like into Russia for those stuck inside.
> 
>      Next peoblem. The Jews of Yemen weren't doing all that badly while they
>  were in Yemen. The Jews of Syria weren't doing too badly either. So the 
>  fanatical arab states weren't killing off their Jewish population and to this
>  day they don't. So what is Israel doing for them?
> 
>      All I have to say to your arguments is that they don't hold very much 
>  water. Israel is a great thing to have but it is not a religious state. To
>  this you agreed. Therefore it is a state of Jews but not a Jewish state.
> 
>     Your comment about Boro Park was totally uncalled for. Who brought them
>  into the picture. I dislike their brand of Judaism too ( to an extent ).
>  As for asimilation, I don't know if Israel is really helping. The Jews of
>  Yemen certainly didn't get anything from being moved to Israel. All they lost
>  was their religious beliefs. Some favor. Intermarriage is on the rise in 
>  Israel too. The problem with assimilation is that people are saying that they 
>  are Jewish enough by supporting Israel and they don't stand up for the Jewishness
>  any more. They are not forced to assert their Jewishness because they say they
>  do enough by buying bonds or going on aliyah. That is not enough. The only
>  way to stop assimilation is through education. Jewish education. The inter-
>  marriage rate is presently 50%. Among those who had formal Jewish education
>  through high school the rate is less than 2%. Tells you something. Also, the
>  intermarriage rate has gone up since the founding of Israel. Think about it.
>  Before you shoot off at the mouth ( or fingers ).
> > 
> > In short, your arguments against the state are based on false logic,
> > faulty assumptions.  The existance of the state of Israel is cause for
> > celebration, not questioning.  The questioning may come on the politics of
> > the state, bu not on its existance!
> > 
> > 				     David Esan
> 
>      Fine. I'll celebrate the fact ( which I do ) but not the set-up and not
>  on the day that others do. I originally said that the day is no cause for 
>  celebration and what I wrote before, in the article you quoted was a slip and 
>  I regretted it after I sent it. The state is something to celebrate but it is
>  also something to be questioned. Why do we only look to see if we are moral
>  when others get killed due to our inaction ( as in Sabra and Shatilla ). We
>  have to be moral all the time. And morality as w know it is defined by the 
>  Torah, so we have to constantly question the state to see if it is fulfilling
>  its obligations.
> 
> 				Eliyahu Teitz.

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***