myunive@nsc.UUCP (Jay Zelitzky) (12/12/84)
Chuqui has inadvertantly brought up a problem to those of us who are not Christian, particularly those of us who are Jewish. Christmas and Jews. >Being brought up in the Judeo-Christian ethic, Christmas has always been a >very important time in my life. <Chuq> Christmas is not Jewish, has no roots in Judaism and is not related to any Jewish holiday. Every year I am somewhat disturbed by otherwise caring and thinking people assuming that Jews celebrate Christmas. If you are Christian, do not assume that your Jewish friends celebrate Christmas! Do not wish us a Merry Christmas! You can wish Jews a Happy Chanuka since that runs from Dec 18(evening) to Dec 26(day). Be aware that Chanuka is not an important holiday however. It is only a very minor holiday and is often not celebrated in Israel. This does not mean that I or most Jews mind being invited to Christmas parties. I am willing to join Christian friends in celebrating their holidays just as I often invite Christian friends to celebrate mine. So don't buy Jewish friends Christmas presents or send us Christmas cards. Remember people are all different and this time of year means something very different to Jews and Christians. Jay Zelitzky {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!nsc!myunive
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (12/13/84)
In re: Christians who wish Jews, "Merry Christmas" etc. So what? Why should Christians have to know anything about Judaism? They are just trying to be polite. And in my case, I do not go around informing everyone I am Jewish. I have been wished "Merry Christmas" by non-Christian Japanese who just thought it was an appropriate greeting for this time of the year. For over 97% of the people she was right. This is part of being in galut, and we happen to live in a basically Christian country. If it bothers you, you can move to Israel an mistakenly wish (in utter politeness and friendliness) "Mo`adim besimhah" or "hag sameah". Yehoyaqim Martillo-'A`jami
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/13/84)
> > Chuqui has inadvertantly brought up > a problem to those of us who are not Christian, particularly those > of us who are Jewish. Christmas and Jews. > >Being brought up in the Judeo-Christian ethic, Christmas has always been a > >very important time in my life. <Chuq> > Christmas is not Jewish, has no roots in Judaism and is > not related to any Jewish holiday. Every year I am somewhat disturbed by > otherwise caring and thinking people assuming that Jews celebrate Christmas. > If you are Christian, do not assume that your Jewish friends celebrate > Christmas! Do not wish us a Merry Christmas! You can wish Jews a Happy > Chanuka since that runs from Dec 18(evening) to Dec 26(day). Be aware > that Chanuka is not an important holiday however. It is only a very minor > holiday and is often not celebrated in Israel. I agree to most of what you say. I don't know why you consider Channuka a minor holiday. It does not have the same status as a Torah commanded holiday, but it is not minor. Also, bringing proofs from Israel isn't valid. After all, they celebrate Independence Day there and I do not consider it a holiday in any sense of the word. > This does not mean that I or most Jews mind being invited to > Christmas parties. I am willing to join Christian friends in celebrating > their holidays just as I often invite Christian friends to celebrate mine. Here I must disagree. Please do not speak for other Jews. If you don't mind attending christmas parties, that's your choice. I personally don't want to be invited the same as I prefer not being wished a merry christmas or even season's greetings. My religion is not their's and the sooner they realize it the better for us all. I would explain that I do not celebrate their holidays and decline but I would prefer if they realized that I do not celebrate as they do. > So don't buy Jewish friends Christmas presents or send us > Christmas cards. Remember people are all different and this time of > year means something very different to Jews and Christians. > > Jay Zelitzky > {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!nsc!myunive To this I also agree. The sooner our christian neighbors realize that there are other people with different beliefs, the sooner we will see peaceful coexistence. Eliyahu Teitz.
mis@spuxll.UUCP (Meyer Steinberg) (12/13/84)
As many know this, I still want to repeat it. many aspects of christmas is not even Christian, but rather pagan. The tree was used in early times to scare away some sort of demons. Lots of light where brought out because this time of year the days get shorter and these pagans thought the sun was dissappearing, hence Christmas lights came about. By the way much of this information must told to me by a non-jew who researched the matter.
ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) (12/13/84)
Presents, trees, yule logs etc are no more christian than they
are jewish. They are all good, clean pagan rituals.
--
Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD
UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!ward
ARPA: hplabs!hao!sa!ward@Berkeley
BELL: 303-497-1252
USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307wkp@lanl.ARPA (12/14/84)
> [Jay Zelitsky writes:] > > [Chanukah] is only a very minor holiday and is often not celebrated > in Israel. > What kind of nonsense is this? Why do people talk like they know what they're talking about? I wonder how many *hours* Jay has even spent in Israel to make such a statement. In point of fact, Chanukah is a very joyous holiday in Israel, and is ALWAYS celebrated with special television shows, parties, hikes, etc., etc. [Eliyahu Teitz replies:] > Also, bringing proofs from Israel isn't > valid. After all, they celebrate Independence Day there and I do not consider > it a holiday in any sense of the word. > > Why not? A good case could be made for the fact that it is even a more important holiday than Chanukah. Don't you think that the day that the 2,000 year Diaspora came to an end with the re-establishment of a Jewish state on Jewish soil should be celebrated by * A L L * Jews? bill peter
ktk@godot.UUCP (Kristofer Karas) (12/14/84)
In article <2031@nsc.UUCP> myunive@nsc.UUCP (Jay Zelitzky) writes: > >Chuqui has inadvertantly brought up >a problem to those of us who are not Christian, particularly those >of us who are Jewish. Christmas and Jews. > Christmas is not Jewish, has no roots in Judaism and is >not related to any Jewish holiday. Every year I am somewhat disturbed by >otherwise caring and thinking people assuming that Jews celebrate Christmas. The town where I live, Brookline Massachusetts is, like a few other towns in massachusetts, predominantly Russion/German Jewish. There are a lot of Synegogues here and they are well attended. However, the number of "Chanuka bushes" does not go without notice either. Also, possible confusing to naive gentiles (and I do not find the connotation of "Goyishikopf" amusing) is that there are a number of otherise faithful Jews with names such as "George Jones." I am frequently confused knowing which card to send to "George Jones", as I know he is otherwise in regular attendance at Friday night service. >If you are Christian, do not assume that your Jewish friends celebrate >Christmas! Do not wish us a Merry Christmas! You can wish Jews a Happy >Chanuka since that runs from Dec 18(evening) to Dec 26(day). Be aware >that Chanuka is not an important holiday however. It is only a very minor >holiday and is often not celebrated in Israel. > Jay Zelitzky > {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!nsc!myunive As an afterthought, I have a friend who is Christian to the core and who would starve to death on an island rich in baked lobster, clams and ham (read "Swineapple" or "Carcass of dead pig"). Neither would he get within ten feet of such a "pagan abomination" as a Christmas tree, nor do any work between Friday and Saterday sundown. He practices Christianity as closely to the way Christ's deciples did as possible. Analagously, the type of restaurant that proliferates the most in Brookline Ma. (and other heavily Jewish communities) is Chinese. Chinese restaurants serve the most notoriously non-Kosher food available as most food is infiltrated with "dead pig", and that which is not is usually fried in "swine fat." Sigh. ------------------------------------------- Kris Karas Thinking Machines Corportaion, Cambridge MA ihnp4!godot!ktk Any person who assumes that my rave on religion has anything to do with the official opinion of Thinking Machines Corp. should take a vacation until they feel better. -- Kris Karas Thinking Machines Corportaion, Cambridge MA ihnp4!godot!ktk
de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/16/84)
>It is only a very minor holiday and is often not celebrated in Israel. > > Jay Zelitzky > {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!nsc!myunive An interesting observation, but on what basis. My relatives, all of whom are non-observant, light candles and enjoy the holiday. My sister reports glowingly of the celebrations of Chanukah in Kiryat Shmona, Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Jerusalem. At a recent study session we read in G'mara that even in a time of danger it is incumbent to light the menorah. The danger they referred to was a prohibiition by the Zoarastrians on the kindling of a flame outside their house of worship, since this was their way of worshipping the god(s). The point is that it is not a major holiday, like the regalim, but is still important, and i certainly not minor. David Esan (moscom!de)
zemon@fritz.UUCP (Art Zemon) (12/17/84)
I'm afraid you are wrong about presents, trees and yule logs
being nonsectarian. Christmas presents were originally
symbols of the gifts brought to Jesus by the three kings.
American Christians may overdo that a bit but the symbolism
still exists.
The tree has/had a meaning associated with new life
(specifially Christ's) and perputual life (ever-green) of
guess who.
I'm not sure of the origin of the yule log, but if it does
not have religious significance it will be the first symbol
which does not.
In a phrase, Christmas is a Christian holiday. It is
definitely not non-sectarian nor is it Jewish.
By the way, I appreciate the consideration of those who
wish me "Happy holidays" rather than a "Merry Christmas."
--
-- Art Zemon
FileNet Corp.
...! {decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !trwrb!felix!zemonteitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/17/84)
> > [Eliyahu Teitz replies:] > > Also, bringing proofs from Israel isn't > > valid. After all, they celebrate Independence Day there and I do not consider > > it a holiday in any sense of the word. > > > > > > Why not? A good case could be made for the fact that it is even a more > important holiday than Chanukah. Don't you think that the day that the > 2,000 year Diaspora came to an end with the re-establishment of a > Jewish state on Jewish soil should be celebrated by * A L L * Jews? > > > bill peter Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few reasons. 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat). There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up the state. The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. Eliyahu Teitz.
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (12/19/84)
[Come on, Mr. Golem, I know your there..] > The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their > own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having > the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious > blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. > Eliyahu Teitz. NONSENSE! Were not the few delivered from the hands of the many when the "state" was established? Don't you think that this was/is a blessing? I think it is and should be celebrated. I see a similarities between the events that led to the festival of Hanukah and the establishment of Israel. Anyone else agree? Happy Hanukah, David S. Green {ihnp4}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468
de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/20/84)
> Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this > point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few > reasons. > > 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather > a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. > Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage > ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced > by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. Just because the politicians and the people of the country do not observe our(!) religion to your satisfaction makes them not-Jews in your opinion. Does it follow that the Lubavitcher Rebbe should feel the same way about all mitnagdim? Since when do you decide the course of Jewish law? Living in the land of Israel is a mitzvah in itself, something that all "good" Jews should consider doing (then why am I here -- another time). I found in Israel the feeling of being Jewish was everywhere. Sure, they violated Shabbes, but it was a day when no one worked, and that is the essense of Shabbes -- not when you can open the refrigerator door. > 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly > a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat) > There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in > detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to > get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up > the state. So what if the independance was declared on Shabbat. In an earlier time Jews died because they would not fight on Shabbat, and the enemy managed to breach their defenses and destroy them on Shabbat. The concept of "pikuah nefesh" (protection of life) applied after that. Or perhaps your one who chooses to stone firetrucks and ambulances that operate on Shabbes. The first chief rabbi of Israel, Rav Kook, was reviled for that decision, even though today he is viewed as a "gdol hador", a giant of the generation. The declaration of the state is cause to celebrate. Whether the Masiach appeared or we help to bring his coming by our actions, the first independant Jewish state in ~2000 years is cause to celebrate, the politician's dreams not withstanding. > The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their > own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having > the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious > blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. > > Eliyahu Teitz. This is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Can you sit there after six million people died in Europe, while three million Jews are destroyed in the USSR, while countless Jews in Arab lands would have suffered horrible degradation in the current fanatic Moslem climate, and tell me that we would have survived another 2000 years????? Perhaps, we would have as a small band living in Boro Park. But, as a group with any political or moral clout -- don't even think of it. (Let us not forget that assimilation in America might of increased had the Jews nothing to hold onto except memories of a fading and dead old country). In short, your arguments against the state are based on false logic, faulty assumptions. The existance of the state of Israel is cause for celebration, not questioning. The questioning may come on the politics of the state, bu not on its existance! David Esan *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
schechte@csd2.UUCP (12/21/84)
The big difference between 1948 and CHANUKA is seen from theactions
taken after the victory. In the miracle of CHANUKA the jews went to
the Bais Hamikdash and purified it to serve HASHEM. They had a physical
miracle (the winning of the war) and a spiritial miracle (the menora
lit for 8 days). However unfortunately in 1948 after the miracles
instead of seeking to serve HASHEM the 'state' was created as a
'democracy' with chilul shabbat,abortions,autopsies etc....
Although we thank HASHEM for giving us back our land we can not
compare this to the days of CHANUKA
Asher Schechterde@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/24/84)
Quote at the end of the article. There was a spiritual victory after the 1948 war, a victory that can be seen daily on this net. Talk to your parents/grandparents about what it was like to live in the pre-Israel world. How the Jew had no pride in being Jewish and how it was a subject we tried to hide. I will not go into the ruses that were used to hide one's identity, but taking off the holidays or early for Shabbat just wasn't done. Wearing a magen david or a mezuzah just wasn't done. Putting up menorahs in public places just wasn't done. Excersing political clout for the good of the community wasn't done. Objecting to Christmas carols being sung in public school or the creche in the public park wasn't done. We didn't want to anger the goyim. Today, whether we observe all the mitzvot or not we have a pride in being Jewish that was missing before Israel. There is a spirituall reawakening of what was a downtrodden people. We are searching for the right paths out of the quagmire that was pre-1948, using many different paths. Most don't coincide with yours, but they are paths, and that is the spiritual victory. David Esan > The big difference between 1948 and CHANUKA is seen from theactions > taken after the victory. In the miracle of CHANUKA the jews went to > the Bais Hamikdash and purified it to serve HASHEM. They had a physical > miracle (the winning of the war) and a spiritial miracle (the menora > lit for 8 days). However unfortunately in 1948 after the miracles > instead of seeking to serve HASHEM the 'state' was created as a > 'democracy' with chilul shabbat,abortions,autopsies etc.... > > Although we thank HASHEM for giving us back our land we can not > compare this to the days of CHANUKA > Asher Schechter *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/25/84)
> > Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this > > point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few > > reasons. > > > > 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather > > a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. > > Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage > > ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced > > by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. > > Just because the politicians and the people of the country do not observe our(!) > religion to your satisfaction makes them not-Jews in your opinion. Does it > follow that the Lubavitcher Rebbe should feel the same way about all mitnagdim? > Since when do you decide the course of Jewish law? Living in the land of > Israel is a mitzvah in itself, something that all "good" Jews should consider > doing (then why am I here -- another time). I found in Israel the feeling > of being Jewish was everywhere. Sure, they violated Shabbes, but it was a > day when no one worked, and that is the essense of Shabbes -- not when you > can open the refrigerator door. > > I never said that the people who do not observe the Torah are not Jews. All I said is that they do not practice Judaism. And that to call a state Jewish it must abide by the Torah. To this idea I remain faithful I cannot say how G-D will deal with any Jew. Also, not opening a refrigerator door is as much a question of Shabbat and its essence as is not working. Actually, the essence of Shabbat according to the Ramban on the Torah ( Vayikra, I don't remember the exact location ) is to deal in spiritual endeavors, to learn Torah, and the such. He says that if a person sleeps all day on shabbat he has not desecrated it but he has not fulfilled the essence of shabbat ( I wrote this when we were discussing electricity and shabbat ). Another thing about shabbat. The g'mara considers one who desecrates the shabbat publicly a non-Jew ( for certain laws ). A pretty strong statement. So violation of the shabbat cannot be brush off with a simple "and that is the essence of shabbes" . > > 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly > > a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat) > > There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in > > detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to > > get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up > > the state. > > So what if the independance was declared on Shabbat. In an earlier time > Jews died because they would not fight on Shabbat, and the enemy managed to > breach their defenses and destroy them on Shabbat. The concept of "pikuah > nefesh" (protection of life) applied after that. Or perhaps your one who > chooses to stone firetrucks and ambulances that operate on Shabbes. The > first chief rabbi of Israel, Rav Kook, was reviled for that decision, even > though today he is viewed as a "gdol hador", a giant of the generation. The > declaration of the state is cause to celebrate. Whether the Masiach appeared > or we help to bring his coming by our actions, the first independant Jewish > state in ~2000 years is cause to celebrate, the politician's dreams not > withstanding. > Pikuach nefesh only applies when there is a definite danger of losing life. The signing of a piece of paper in no way saved anyone's life. So pikuach nefesh does not apply in this case. Another thing. I never said that I do not consider the establishment of a state in Israel something to thank G-D for. All I said is that Israeli independence day is not a holiday. I personally feel that Yom Yerushalayim, the day Jerusalem was liberated from arab hands is a more appropriate day to celebrate. The g'mara ( as usual I don't remember the source) already discusses the day of liberation for Jerusalem a a holiday. > > The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their > > own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having > > the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious > > blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. > > > > Eliyahu Teitz. > > This is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Can you sit there after six > million people died in Europe, while three million Jews are destroyed in > the USSR, while countless Jews in Arab lands would have suffered horrible > degradation in the current fanatic Moslem climate, and tell me that we > would have survived another 2000 years????? Perhaps, we would have as a > small band living in Boro Park. But, as a group with any political or > moral clout -- don't even think of it. (Let us not forget that assimilation > in America might of increased had the Jews nothing to hold onto except > memories of a fading and dead old country). This is the biggest crock I've ever heard ( to quote someone -)). Did the state of Israel exist during the Holocaust? No. So it has no bearing on the matter. Actually, it does. Quite a large bearing. Who prevented the people from getting out of Europe. As I said in the past, read the book Perfidy, by Ben Hecht, then come back and tell me that Israel saved the Jews. Also, the Jews in Russia have been there since 1917, 31 years before the state of Israel. So the state is really helping them. Another thing. People like to shout about Russian Jewry. Emigration from Russia has trickled down to next ot nothing and everyone is running about screaming. And if the Russians let out a few thousand Jews everyone will be happy and pat themselves on the back about the great job they did saving Russian Jewry. How about the people who are stuck without a hope of getting out. What do all hese groups do for them aside from ignore their plight. The condition of those stuck inside only gets worse for every Jew they let out. How do I know? I have a close relative who works with the Russian government to get siddurim machzorim, lulavim, t'fillin and the like into Russia for those stuck inside. Next peoblem. The Jews of Yemen weren't doing all that badly while they were in Yemen. The Jews of Syria weren't doing too badly either. So the fanatical arab states weren't killing off their Jewish population and to this day they don't. So what is Israel doing for them? All I have to say to your arguments is that they don't hold very much water. Israel is a great thing to have but it is not a religious state. To this you agreed. Therefore it is a state of Jews but not a Jewish state. Your comment about Boro Park was totally uncalled for. Who brought them into the picture. I dislike their brand of Judaism too ( to an extent ). As for asimilation, I don't know if Israel is really helping. The Jews of Yemen certainly didn't get anything from being moved to Israel. All they lost was their religious beliefs. Some favor. Intermarriage is on the rise in Israel too. The problem with assimilation is that people are saying that they are Jewish enough by supporting Israel and they don't stand up for the Jewishness any more. They are not forced to assert their Jewishness because they say they do enough by buying bonds or going on aliyah. That is not enough. The only way to stop assimilation is through education. Jewish education. The inter- marriage rate is presently 50%. Among those who had formal Jewish education through high school the rate is less than 2%. Tells you something. Also, the intermarriage rate has gone up since the founding of Israel. Think about it. Before you shoot off at the mouth ( or fingers ). > > In short, your arguments against the state are based on false logic, > faulty assumptions. The existance of the state of Israel is cause for > celebration, not questioning. The questioning may come on the politics of > the state, bu not on its existance! > > David Esan Fine. I'll celebrate the fact ( which I do ) but not the set-up and not on the day that others do. I originally said that the day is no cause for celebration and what I wrote before, in the article you quoted was a slip and I regretted it after I sent it. The state is something to celebrate but it is also something to be questioned. Why do we only look to see if we are moral when others get killed due to our inaction ( as in Sabra and Shatilla ). We have to be moral all the time. And morality as w know it is defined by the Torah, so we have to constantly question the state to see if it is fulfilling its obligations. Eliyahu Teitz.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/25/84)
> [Come on, Mr. Golem, I know your there..] > > > The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their > > own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having > > the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious > > blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. > > Eliyahu Teitz. > > NONSENSE! Were not the few delivered from the hands of the many > when the "state" was established? Don't you think that this was/is a blessing? > I think it is and should be celebrated. I see a similarities between the events > that led to the festival of Hanukah and the establishment of Israel. Anyone > else agree? > Happy Hanukah, > David S. Green {ihnp4}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-4468 The same except that Channuka celebrated our spiritual freedom and was a religious victory mainly and a physical one secondly. The Greeks were not interested in our deaths only in our renouncing Judaism. The setting up of a state in Israel had nothing to do with religion, and that's all I've been saying all along. Eliyahu Teitz.
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (12/28/84)
> > [Come on, Mr. Golem, I know your there..] > The same except that Channuka celebrated our spiritual freedom and was > a religious victory mainly and a physical one secondly. The Greeks were > not interested in our deaths only in our renouncing Judaism. > The setting up of a state in Israel had nothing to do with religion, > and that's all I've been saying all along. > Eliyahu Teitz. To paraphrase from Mario Puzo's "The Godfather": "I can't reason with him." Shalom, David Seth Green {ihnp4}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-2000
nachum@uiucdcs.UUCP (12/30/84)
This debate reminds me of a "story" and a "moral" I heard from a professor of philosophy at Hebrew University (whose name I forget): First the story: One day, a couple came to their rebbe with a serious problem. They had just had a baby boy and were having a bitter argument what to name him. So the rebbe turned to the wife and asked, "What do you want to name him?" "Yossel," she said. Then he turned to the husband with the same question. "Yossel," he said. The rebbe was puzzled: "Then why not just name him 'Yossel'," he asked. The woman explained: "I want to name the baby after my uncle, Yossel the tailor; my husband here wants to name him after his uncle, Yossel the carpenter." The rabbi sat immersed in thought for a long time. Finally, he ruled: "Call him Yossel. If, when he grows up he'll be a tailor, then it will be clear that he was named after his mother's uncle. If, on the other hand, he turns to carpentry, then we will know that he was named after his father's uncle." Now for the moral: So it is with Israel. They established it as a "Jewish State". But "Jewish" meant (and means) different things to different people. Only now do we see that calling it "Jewish" merely swept the real issue under the carpet.
davidm@tektronix.UUCP (David M. Meyer) (12/30/84)
In article <1014@aecom.UUCP> teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) writes: >> >> Chuqui has inadvertantly brought up >> a problem to those of us who are not Christian, particularly those >> of us who are Jewish. Christmas and Jews. >> >Being brought up in the Judeo-Christian ethic, Christmas has always been a >> >very important time in my life. <Chuq> >> Christmas is not Jewish, has no roots in Judaism and is >> not related to any Jewish holiday. Every year I am somewhat disturbed by >> otherwise caring and thinking people assuming that Jews celebrate Christmas. >> If you are Christian, do not assume that your Jewish friends celebrate >> Christmas! Do not wish us a Merry Christmas! You can wish Jews a Happy >> Chanuka since that runs from Dec 18(evening) to Dec 26(day). Be aware >> that Chanuka is not an important holiday however. It is only a very minor >> holiday and is often not celebrated in Israel. > > I agree to most of what you say. I don't know why you consider Channuka > a minor holiday. It does not have the same status as a Torah commanded > holiday, but it is not minor. Also, bringing proofs from Israel isn't > valid. After all, they celebrate Independence Day there and I do not consider > it a holiday in any sense of the word. > > >> This does not mean that I or most Jews mind being invited to >> Christmas parties. I am willing to join Christian friends in celebrating >> their holidays just as I often invite Christian friends to celebrate mine. > > Here I must disagree. Please do not speak for other Jews. If you > don't mind attending christmas parties, that's your choice. I personally > don't want to be invited the same as I prefer not being wished a merry > christmas or even season's greetings. My religion is not their's and the > sooner they realize it the better for us all. I would explain that I do > not celebrate their holidays and decline but I would prefer if they realized > that I do not celebrate as they do. > >> So don't buy Jewish friends Christmas presents or send us >> Christmas cards. Remember people are all different and this time of >> year means something very different to Jews and Christians. >> >> Jay Zelitzky >> {ihnp4,hplabs,decwrl}!nsc!myunive > > To this I also agree. The sooner our christian neighbors realize > that there are other people with different beliefs, the sooner we will > see peaceful coexistence. > > Eliyahu Teitz. Sorry to repost the entire article, but since I didn't receive the newgroup (and hence the original article), I thought the context was important. Now to my point: Aren't Christians (and other faiths, for that matter) just trying to impart some of the joy and goodwill that they feel at Christmas time to us (humans)? When someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or some other (non-Jewish) holiday greeting, do you really believe that the goal is to some how subvert our ethnic identity? I would suggest that the answer is no. Further, isn't the fact that people get the "Christmas Spirit" (if they do) wonderful (where by Christmas Spirit I mean peace on earth, goodwill towards your fellow man, ....)? I believe that, as Jews, we should have a strong enough ethnic identity to understand our (non-Jewish) friends. After all, I don't believe that (in general), they have our demise in mind. Finally, there are more important social issues for us to focus on other that the "indignation" we feel when wished a "Merry Christmas". Finally, as to the issue of our being at peace sooner if non-Jewish people realize that there are different faiths (other than their own), I ask the following: Does anyone really believe that such people are unaware of Judism? The problems we face (in the Arab world, for example) are much broader that mere awareness that Jews don't celebrate Christmas. Peace, David Meyer
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (12/31/84)
I sent the following essay (mimeographed) to my friends one December several years back. None of them got offended. And I now get remarkably fewer "Merry Christmas" cards (and more "Seasons Greetings" ones). On my hearth are over a dozen Christmas cards. I don't send them myself. Partly because I'm Jewish. Partly because I'm not an enthusiastic supporter of the American Greeting Card Industry. The whole thing fills me with feelings of mingled nervousness and annoyance -- with a dash of aesthetic pleasure at some of the pretty pictures. I wish there were a more appropriate time of year to get such cards. Couldn't there be a Friends Day? Or couldn't friends send cards for New Year's instead of for religious holidays? Christmas is for me a yearly reminder not of the fact that I live in a land of people who believe in an alien religion, but of the fact that I live in a land of people who place more emphasis on their reilgious rituals than on their religious beliefs. The essence of the American Christmas is the ritual and its trappings; not prayer and piety. No one would ask me to participate in the latter: it would seem too obviously ludicrous. But a people that observes ritual sees no reason why those of a different belief shouldn't observe the same ritual. So as a child I was taught to sing Christmas carols in scool, and now I get Christmas cards. And people wish me "Merry Christmas" when I shop--and I never know what to answer. It's as bad as writing thank you ntoes for presents you didn't want. But then of course you could always say, "Thank you for thinking of me." What's a good, smooth way to thank a person for thinking of you but not enough to notice your religion? What would Christians think if Pagans wished them a Happy Samhain? As an outsider, I find Christmas a beautiful spectacle. The carols are lovely. I used to wish my Jewish holidays had as many pretty songs. One day it occurred to me to wonder what sort of songs Jewish writers like Irving Berlin and George Gershwin might have written if they'd lived in a culture where you could make lots of money writing songs for Jewish holidays. There are some wonderful old mvoies too: "The Bishop's Wife," "Miracle on 34th Street," Menotti's opera "Amahl and the Night Visitors." They're not derived from my religion, but then neither are the cultures in a lot of science books I read. I love them anyway. Christmas is beautiful. It's not my holiday, though, and I find it becomes ugly only when people try to pretend that it is IS somehow my holiday. Lies are always ugly. --Lee Gold
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (01/01/85)
I do not understand Lee Gold's reference to the paucity of Jewish songs for Jewish holidays. I was with the Egyptian Jews of Boston for Simhat Torah. They had a boot of songs for the holidays which was 500-600 pages long, and they were singing songs which were not in this book.