teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/20/84)
Well, I didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest. When I said the Jews of Israel don't give a damn I wasn't refering to the citizens. I was refering to the attitude of the politicians who set up the laws who have a very large disregard for the Torah and Halacha. I can in no way say anything about the people of Israel, especially since my mother is Israeli as am I ( I am inasmuch as I have been drafted to serve in the army, an obligation ( and honor ) I will one day fulfill ). The people of the state are Jews a much as any other Jew in the world and in fact they have more going for them than we here (outside Israel ) do. After all they fulfill many mitzvot we don't even have to deal with. Aside from that, the z'chut of defending the Jewish people is not something to be taken lightly. A person who dies in such a situation, would be considered ( at least to me ) as a m'kadesh shem shamayim [ glorifying G-D's name ] and even if he weren't observant, I would say he has a quicker ticket to Olam Habba than anyone, no matter how great, who lives outside Israel. [ As an aside, I too have family members who fought in all the wars ]. What I was trying to say was something totally different. My point is this: The state, in its present status, is not a Jewish state. Before you blow up, let me explain. A person born to a Jew is a Jew, no matter what the level of his observance. However, a person who is not observant does not follow the Jewish religion. Reform "Judaism" is not Judaism. Judaism assumes that a person abide by the Torah. To say that the Torah is an historical record, and that the laws can be ignored, is NOT practicing Judaism. He is still Jewish, though. The state of Israel does not, by the above definition, fall under the category of a Jewish state. This is what I meant, no more, no less. You can argue with my definition of Jewish, but that's all you can argue with. As for what was said about people coming through the Holocaust thinking that Israel is "nice", as I said, all I can do ids reiterate one other portion of my article. Read Perfidy. See what Ben Hecht ( who was killed by those he wrote about ) had to say about the early political leaders of the state. He portrays a rather ugly picture. The book isn't too long and it's rather interesting. I hope I have cleared up some of what I said, but I still stick by my definitions and conclusions. Israel, from a religious standpoint has not fared so well. Look at all the Yemenite Jews who were brought to Israel. In Yemen they were observant. How many first generation Israelis ( from Yemenite parents ) can claim that? I'm not saying it would have been better to leave them there, but if they were moved it was and is the responsibility of those who moved them to care for them, both physically and religiously, and the government was negligent in both. The government is in a difficult situation. There are many who want more religious observance, many who don't. The government must be aware of those who want the religion and take them into consideration. As long as they don't I will remain firm in my beliefs, that the state is a state of Jews but not a Jewish state. Eliyahu Teitz.
de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (12/24/84)
(Quote at the end. Good idea in general that.) The crux of your argument is that a person who does not follow the Torah is does not follow the Jewish religion, although he remains Jewish. I disagree. I cannot see how you can seperate the two. A Jew is enjoin by birth to follow the Torah, but is endowed with a will to choose if he/she wishes to follow the precepts as written and interpeted over the years. Choosing not to follow a precept or a group of precepts is as concious an act as choosing to follow. One man's Judaism is not necessarily the next one's. Now it is Chanukkah. Beit Hillel said we should light increasing number of candles. Beit Shammai said that we should light decreasing number of candles. Were the followers of Beit Shammai not observant Jews because their actions were not "correct" according to Beit Hillel. Is the Jew who occasionally eats at McDonalds less Jewish than one who eats only glatt? (Better yet is a person who eats kosher, but not glatt, not Jewish?) By saying that an observance of Jewish that is not in keeping with your views makes the Jew not religious, and therefore an ethnic-Jew not a religious-ethnic- Jew will splinter our religion/ethnic group. For the record, I do not think that reform and conservative Judaism are viable paths for Jewish religious/ethnic group survival. But, they exist, they are ethnic Jews, and they in their own way are religious Jews. David Esan > What I was trying to say was something totally different. My point is this: > The state, in its present status, is not a Jewish state. Before you blow up, > let me explain. A person born to a Jew is a Jew, no matter what the level of > his observance. However, a person who is not observant does not follow the > Jewish religion. Reform "Judaism" is not Judaism. Judaism assumes that a > person abide by the Torah. To say that the Torah is an historical record, > and that the laws can be ignored, is NOT practicing Judaism. He is still > Jewish, though.
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (12/26/84)
While what the leftists and secularists did to Yemenites and other oriental Jews was disgusting, the left scum were totally honest and did exactly what they said they would do, the leaders of Mafdal (national religious party) and agudat yisrael gave a lot of platitudes and did nothing for oriental Jews (Belzer Rebbe exempted) even tho these ashkenazi leaders had 50 years of dealing with the left scum. Instead the leaders of Mafdal and Agudat Yisrael treated oriental Jews with contempt and disdain. For this reason, I will not be sad should Mafdal and Agudat Yisrael one day just be bad memories.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/26/84)
( I, too, will leave the quotes at the end [ when I remember ]) Concerning lighting candles, yes, those who lit according to Beit Shammai, once the law was set according to Beit Hillel were less observant. Not less Jewish ( in the sense that they are Jews ) but less Jewish in the sense of not following the laws. Specific examples in this situation are not very good, because one can bring very minor points of argument and say that it is ridiculous to call someone less Jewish because of it. My point is, as you seem to agree, against Conservative and Reform Jews who think they are practicing Judaism, when in fact they are disregarding most of it. If you disagree with my definition, fine. On that we can talk. However, some of the responses that I have seen have been attacks on me personally. Since none of those who attacked me knows me personally, I find it upsetting, to say the least, that some people resort to these tactics to bolster their own opinions. Degrading me does not make the other person's argument any better. So stick to discussing my points and not me. In general I enjoy writing to the net, and I was taken aback at the venom in the attacks on my articles. I quite obviously touched on a point which is dear to many on the net ( as it is to me ). However, people must realize, that while Israel is a great thing to have, it is not anywhere near what is could and should be. I said what I did because I want Israel to be at the forefront of Judaism, but in its present state it isn't. Whether one says hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut or not is not really the issue. The issue is Israel's position in the religious world. Take what I have said to heart. If you look beyond the words, into the ideas, I think you will for the most part agree with me. Wishing everyone all the best, and the speedy rebuilding of the Beit Hamikdash, Eliyahu Teitz. > (Quote at the end. Good idea in general that.) > > The crux of your argument is that a person who does not follow the Torah is > does not follow the Jewish religion, although he remains Jewish. I disagree. > I cannot see how you can seperate the two. A Jew is enjoin by birth to follow > the Torah, but is endowed with a will to choose if he/she wishes to follow the > precepts as written and interpeted over the years. Choosing not to follow a > precept or a group of precepts is as concious an act as choosing to follow. > One man's Judaism is not necessarily the next one's. > > Now it is Chanukkah. Beit Hillel said we should light increasing number of > candles. Beit Shammai said that we should light decreasing number of candles. > Were the followers of Beit Shammai not observant Jews because their actions > were not "correct" according to Beit Hillel. Is the Jew who occasionally eats > at McDonalds less Jewish than one who eats only glatt? (Better yet is a person > who eats kosher, but not glatt, not Jewish?) > > By saying that an observance of Jewish that is not in keeping with your views > makes the Jew not religious, and therefore an ethnic-Jew not a religious-ethnic- > Jew will splinter our religion/ethnic group. > > For the record, I do not think that reform and conservative Judaism are > viable paths for Jewish religious/ethnic group survival. But, they exist, > they are ethnic Jews, and they in their own way are religious Jews. > > David Esan > > > > What I was trying to say was something totally different. My point is this: > > The state, in its present status, is not a Jewish state. Before you blow up, > > let me explain. A person born to a Jew is a Jew, no matter what the level of > > his observance. However, a person who is not observant does not follow the > > Jewish religion. Reform "Judaism" is not Judaism. Judaism assumes that a > > person abide by the Torah. To say that the Torah is an historical record, > > and that the laws can be ignored, is NOT practicing Judaism. He is still > > Jewish, though.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (12/26/84)
Quote at end.
Yakim,
That was totally uncalled for. No one was pointing fingers at anyone, so
why did you have to start. The net is not for you to go degrading the
Ashkenazim at every opportunity. The S'faradim did get a raw deal, granted.
But you article does nothing to improve their situation, nor does it endear
S'faradim to anyone because some people see you as their mouth-piece and are
turned off by your constant screaming and yelling( although you haven't been
yelling so much these past few months ).
In the past, I would have sent you a private letter, but you seem to ignore
them so I am posting this as an article for all to see. Stop the yelling, and
instead try to work together as a united people, yes I believe in unity and
religious inclination makes no difference ( in fact a diversity of opinions
makes for a fairer system ), to prevent such wrongs from occuring again. The
Beit Hamikdash was destroyed because of infighting amongst the Jews, let us
try to unite and work together.
Eliyahu Teitz.
> While what the leftists and secularists did to Yemenites and other
> oriental Jews was disgusting, the left scum were totally honest and did
> exactly what they said they would do, the leaders of Mafdal (national
> religious party) and agudat yisrael gave a lot of platitudes and did
> nothing for oriental Jews (Belzer Rebbe exempted) even tho these
> ashkenazi leaders had 50 years of dealing with the left scum. Instead
> the leaders of Mafdal and Agudat Yisrael treated oriental Jews with
> contempt and disdain. For this reason, I will not be sad should Mafdal
> and Agudat Yisrael one day just be bad memories.dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (12/28/84)
[ Quote at top of article!] > The S'faradim did get a raw deal, granted. > But you article does nothing to improve their situation, nor does it endear > S'faradim to anyone because some people see you as their mouth-piece and are > turned off by your constant screaming and yelling( although you haven't been > yelling so much these past few months ). I was not *that* aware of the mistreatment of Sefardim until Yaqim brought it to my attention through the net. Sometimes you need somebody to pound somethinginto your head. I'm sure that I am not the only one who was ignorant of the plight of the Sefardim so therefore Yaqim has accomplished something. Also, if it wasn't for Yaqim's style, I might have ignored his postings! Shalom, David Seth Green {ihnp4}!mhuxi!dsg 201-564-2000 This posting should not be construed as an endorsement of Y.S. Martillo nor a compliment re: his writing style nor an agreement with all that he posts!
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (12/28/84)
As far as I know, I have not received any mail from Eliyahu Teitz in several months. This could easily by a problem with sendmail or other mail program at mit-athena or decvax. We have seen many such problems. You missed the point of my article. I find condemning the left-scum founders of the state of Israel for their treatment of oriental and Sefardic Jews somewhat hypocritical if you do not also condemn perhaps even more strongly the contemporary Ashkenazi religious leaders for their treatment of Oriental and Sefardic Jews. These Ashkenazi religious leaders were also acting against their own best interests since the oriental communities which came to Israel were genuinely Jewish (not accidentally like the vast majoritiy of Ashkenazim). If the Ashkenazi religious leaders had been willing to spend a little of the money received as war-crime compensation on schools for Sefardim (the first Sefardi religious schools were set up by the histadrut -- leftist, secularist labor union), the left-scum would have been thrown out of the Israeli government a long time ago and genuine levantine Jewish observance would have been established shortly thereafter. I have seen other examples of self-destructiveness among Ashkenazim and I suspect there may be something fundamentally wrong with the Ashkenazi shittah. Eventually a forced levantinization of the Israeli population will probably be necessary. This happens not to be the Sefardi style. As I have pointed out before, most Sefardim did not know there was a distinction between Sefardim and Ashkenazim until they came to Israel. Now a forced levantinization will probably be necessary because the left-scum act even crazier since political assertiveness among Sefardim has broken the left strangelhold on the nation. Since a forced levantinization would essentially mean establishing a more religious state along Sefardi lines, I expect religious Ashkenazim are obligated according to halakah to support such a movement even if it means the eventual elimination of the Ashkenazi shittah from Israel.
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (01/03/85)
"Forced Levantization"? Is this a code phrase or something? David Rubin
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (01/08/85)
>"Forced Levantization"? Is this a code phrase or something? > David Rubin When Sefardim were coming to Israel en masse in the late 40's and 50's, Ha'Arets and other newspapers and journals had articles mentioning taking necessary measures for prevention of levantinization of Israeli culture. I wonder if this was a code phrase or something.