larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) (01/03/85)
I am familiar with this organization and it is not accurate to say that they are a non-Jewish organization. If you would check on the facts I believe you would find out that many of the members of this organization are jewish. There are also a few who are non-jews. From my understanding this organization seeks to share with their Jewish brothers and sisters what they believe to be the Messiah -- Jesus. Why the fear of such an organization? by the way, I am not jewish but christian. I receive their newsletter and have seen them perform in person. They have touring acting group. karen alias larryg
ktw@whuxi.UUCP (WOLMAN) (01/07/85)
"Why the fear of such an organization?" Others will probably explain this better than me, but I will take a stab at it anyway. Part of the problem Jews have with such an organization as Jews for Jesus stems from the Christian stance toward their prophet/messiah. But the weight of the problem, I suspect, derives from the history of the Jews in the Christian (or post-Christian) European and (to a lesser extent) American worlds. First of all, Jesus is generally regarded by believing Christians as the fulfillment of the Davidic prophecies supposedly peppered throughout the Tanach, especially in Isaiah. He is believed to be the messiah. No Jew accepts this. NO Jew: and I include here not only the Orthodox voices that are the majority on this net, but also Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist-identifying Jews. The historical Jesus may have been a practicing, devout Jew; but what he has become in the hands of his followers renders him totally beyond the realm of Yiddishkeit or Judizmo. It is the creation of a figure called "Jesus Christ" from a tortured Jew who may have lived in Palestine 2000 years ago that presents the next part of the problem. At some point in the so-called Middle Ages, probably around the fifth or sixth centuries CE (I rely on historians for corrections here), the Jews attained pariah status in Western civilization. No need to recount the restrictive laws passed in the Teutonic states, in France, in England, in the Byzantine empire. No need to give ghastly details of the persecutions, murders, "trials of the Talmud," and expulsions from country to country. Jews were an on- going source of horror to believing Christians because their in- sistence on holding to their faith and ways undercut the essential Christian belief that the life of "Jesus Christ" ended the "old law" and obviated the need for the Jews to remain Jews. Here was a nation of men and women who said "No. It wasn't him." This, I suspect, lies at the heart of the official and unofficial anti- Jewish history of Medieval and Renaissance Europe. When it was transformed into outright racism in the 19th century (anti- semitism as opposed to anti-Jewishness), the road to Auschwitz and Majdanek was already being built in the hearts and minds of Western Europe's Christian community. So why our fear of Jew for Jesus? Why our disgust? Why do you have to ask? Do you believe that there are Christian sects that have given up on us, officially or unofficially? Do you believe that the supposed "friends" of the Jews such as Revs. Falwell and Robertson support the state of Israel from altruistic motives, or because they believe that the restoration of the Jews to their land is the first step toward the CONVERSION of those same Jews to acceptance of "Jesus Christ" as the messiah? Do you believe that if they fail--as they will--their wrath at the Jews' "stubborness" will be any less palpable than that of a Medieval Bishop or Cardinal in Mainz, Paris, or Cologne? Finally, do you believe that today's Jews--observant or not--can tolerate a group whose motives are at best suspect, and at worst directed toward our extinction? Ken Wolman [now at] lcuxc!kenw Bellcore @ Livingston
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (01/09/85)
You didn't have to tell us that you are not Jewish, it is obvious since you do not grasp what a Jewish organization is. If you had a Moonie professing to be a Christian, born of Christian parents, and teaching "Moonie-ism"... by your standards that would be a Christian organization. The Jews for Jesus are apostates teaching things which are totally alien to Judaism and are most certainly NOT a Jewish organization. Worse, they are an insidious deception. It never ceases to amaze me how Christians don't hesitate to tell Jews what a Jew or Jewish organization is. It is thoroughly absurd. To my Jewish friends: I am going to Israel in the next month or so. It's been a thoroughly enjoyable experience corresponding with all of you. If you are ever in Israel I hope you will look me up. If anyone desires to keep in touch my mail will be forwarded for a few months and you can write me at: 4412 Southmore Drive, Orlando, Fl. 32812. Sorry, won't be on the net henceforth. L'heetra-ot. Yiri
jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) (01/12/85)
>>Karen asks: >> "Why the fear of such an organization?" > Ken Wolman answers: > > First of all, Jesus is generally regarded by believing Christians > as the fulfillment of the Davidic prophecies supposedly peppered > throughout the Tanach, especially in Isaiah. He is believed to be > the messiah. No Jew accepts this. NO Jew: and I include here not > only the Orthodox voices that are the majority on this net, but > also Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist-identifying Jews. Wrong. What about Jews for Jesus. Are they not Jews. Or are they not because you and other Jews on the net (now the ultimate authority, huh?:-) decide they're not? Who's the judge anyway? Is not G-d the Judge of His own people? It is probably your responsibility to inform and/or warn fellow Jews of their misunderstanding (in YOUR opinion) just as it is ours to warn you (of OUR opinion). I know...I've been warned and have warned and I realize the validity of this action from both sides. > At some point in the so-called Middle Ages, probably around the > fifth or sixth centuries CE (I rely on historians for corrections > here), the Jews attained pariah status in Western civilization. No > need to recount the restrictive laws passed in the Teutonic states, > in France, in England, in the Byzantine empire. No need to give > ghastly details of the persecutions, murders, "trials of the > Talmud," and expulsions from country to country. Jews were an on- > going source of horror to believing Christians because their in- > sistence on holding to their faith and ways undercut the essential > Christian belief that the life of "Jesus Christ" ended the "old > law" and obviated the need for the Jews to remain Jews. Here was > a nation of men and women who said "No. It wasn't him." Jesus never "ended the old law." As has been discussed in net.religion. christian, Jesus not only came to fullfill the law (every letter), He came to reveal G-d, the Father, to both Jews and Gentiles. He never said that Jews should not obey the law. This is something that is left for the Jews to decide. However, it was revealed through the Spirit to Paul that the Gentiles did not have to become Jews first before accepting the teachings of Jesus. Paul states that if a Jew chooses to observe the law (as to G-d and not men, i.e. for the purpose of enhancing his relationship with G-d) we should not stumble him in any way but respect this and observe also in his presence. > So why our fear of Jew for Jesus? Why our disgust? Why do you > have to ask? Do you believe that there are Christian sects that > have given up on us, officially or unofficially? You haven't truly answered these first two questions. Why the "fear"? Are Jews afraid of being persecuted by Jews? Is it the teachings of Jesus that necessitate the persecution of Jews? Or do you think maybe it's more the nature of the people involved. Not all persecution has been Christian to Jew and, for that matter, not all persecution has been religious in nature. Disgust of persecution is understandable; but for the teachings of a man who was an observant Jew and may very well have fullfilled the prophesies of the "awaited messiah" is not understandable. If you have deemed Him not the messiah for some reason, then it is more understandable indeed. Christians are just responsible for telling people the good news as given to them by Jesus (a Jewish Prophet) and His apostles (given authority by Jesus). They will not stop doing that, I guarantee. Christ is preached for every conceivable reason and not all of them (the reasons) are upright or sincere. It is from this insincerity (probably jealousy, envy or some other foolish emotion) that such persecutions as you have mentioned arise. And this insincerity is the anti-thesis of Jesus' teaching (just read Proverbs and then the accounts of the gospel). >Do you believe that > the supposed "friends" of the Jews such as Revs. Falwell and > Robertson support the state of Israel from altruistic motives, or > because they believe that the restoration of the Jews to their > land is the first step toward the CONVERSION of those same Jews to > acceptance of "Jesus Christ" as the messiah? As stated above, there are many motives involved in preaching Christ, not all of them are upright and in line with His teachings. I am not here to judge the Falwells et al. but rather, I judge my own relation- ship with G-d and ask Him to show Mercy on me as King David did. >Do you believe that > if they fail--as they will--their wrath at the Jews' "stubborness" > will be any less palpable than that of a Medieval Bishop or > Cardinal in Mainz, Paris, or Cologne? Finally, do you believe that > today's Jews--observant or not--can tolerate a group whose motives > are at best suspect, and at worst directed toward our extinction? It is questionable to say that the Jews will never accept Jesus as their messiah. He says they will. I do not dispute that. But I know it may not (necessarily) be because of Christian evangelism, for most it will be when He comes in all His glory. There will be no questions then. Julie Harazduk philabs!jah "I didn't start it...I just saw it here and couldn't resist the opportunity to discuss my faith." - A Jew who knows Jesus.
gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (01/14/85)
-- >> It is questionable to say that the Jews will never accept Jesus as >> their messiah. He says they will. I do not dispute that. But I >> know it may not (necessarily) be because of Christian evangelism, >> for most it will be when He comes in all His glory. There will be >> no questions then. >> Julie Harazduk >> "I didn't start it...I just saw it here and couldn't resist the >> opportunity to discuss my faith." - A Jew who knows Jesus. You may not have started it, but I will do my best to end it. Get this Christian proselytizing out of this newsgroup. And fast. Christian evangelists already have scores of TV and radio stations to spread their gospel, and your creche scenes up the wazoo, so-- GET THE $%**&^!# OUT OF HERE! Go build another creche scene. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 13 Jan 85 [24 Nivose An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
shindman@utcs.UUCP (Paul Shindman) (01/14/85)
In article <210@philabs.UUCP> jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) writes: >........................................................... I am not >here to judge ................... but rather, I judge my own relation- >ship with G-d and ask Him to show Mercy on me .................. > > >Julie Harazduk Good. Then please confine your discussion of Christianity to net.religion.christian. If you want to discuss Christianity and Jews, you are welcome to do so - *in net.religion.christian*!!! Net.religion.jewish is for articles of interest and pertaining to Jews and Judaism. I will repeat what many other subscribers have said: that what you want to talk about is out of place in this newsgroup, and you should keep it in, you guessed it, net.religion.christian, or if in doubt, just post it to net.religion.
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/14/85)
When I first proposed net.religion.jewish on behalf of a number
of interested Jews, and during the discussion in net.news.group
which followed, one basic point was made. For the newsgroup to
exist and function, is was imperative that argument about the
very essence and existence of Judaism does not belong in this
newsgroup. It belongs, quite properly, in net.religion.
Whatever Julie Harazduk may claim, the simple fact is the religion
she preaches is not Judaism. Ms. Harazduk, you are welcome to
post your preachings to net.religion, but not here. At the very most,
it might have been appropriate to enclose a pointer to net.religion in
this newsgroup.
Net.religion.jewish was formed to enable discussion among Jews and
non-Jews of Jewish topics, and has functioned fairly well to that
effect. Kindly do not attempt to bring discussion of an alien religion
in our newsgroup. Thank you.
Dave Sherman
Toronto
--
{utzoo pesnta nrcaero utcs}!lsuc!dave
{allegra decvax ihnp4 linus}!utcsrgv!lsuc!davefsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (01/15/85)
Selectively quoting from article <philabs.210> jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk): >What about Jews for Jesus. Are they not Jews. Or are they not >because you and other Jews on the net (now the ultimate authority, huh?:-) >decide they're not? Who's the judge anyway? and: >Christians are just responsible for telling people the good news >as given to them by Jesus (a Jewish Prophet) and His apostles (given >authority by Jesus). They will not stop doing that, I guarantee. The founders of the Christian movement were indeed Jews. They believed that Jesus was the once and future messiah (similar to King Arthur, the once and future king of England). These Jews were called Nazarenes (sp?). Other Jews were skeptical, or held no opinion. Since no one knows for sure who the long-awaited messiah will be, Jews are free to speculate that he will be Jesus, reincarnated. On the other hand, perhaps the messiah will turn out to be my late Uncle Fred. But probably not. The Nazarenes broke with the Jewish faith when they decided that Jesus was actually God himself, not merely prophet and/or messiah. Jews have always considered it idolatry to worship a man as a god. Any man. Even a messiah. That God, Jupiter or Zeus would sweep down to earth, impregnate a virgin, resulting in a divine offspring -- this is a pagan idea, reminicient of the stories of Theseus and Hercules, which was probably not accepted until the gentile "non-converts" outnumbered the Jews amoung the Nazarenes. This is what gave the Nazarenes a bad name amoung the other Jews, and why there is so much hostility to the Jews for Jesus movement. Do you, Julie Harazduk, accept the doctrine of the trinity of God? If so, you are not a "Jew for Jesus", but a Christian. Frank Silbermann TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA.
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (01/15/85)
A few of y'all busted my chops when I asked straight ahead
questions about JUDAISM. Called me a prosyletizer huh...?
Well just remember ol' Job. He said " I feared a fear and it
came upon me." Now you got the real thing - Now it is not
your paranoia speaking.
However, I hope Ken is right that it will go away from n.r.j.
"Chain, Chain, Chain...Chain of Fools"
Lady Soul, Aretha
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}kenw@lcuxc.UUCP (K Wolman) (01/15/85)
I do not wish to make a second career out of dueling with Julie
Harazduk about Jews for Jesus. But I will say this: I am not for a
moment suggesting that Judaism rejects Jesus because (1) the net is
the arbiter [!] of what is and isn't Jewish, or because (2) the weight
of Rabbinic and post-Rabbinic Judaism stands against wandering after
strange gods. My reasons for opposing groups of this kind stems in
large measure from my distaste for the Do As I Say Not As I Do history
of Christianity vis-a-vis Jews and Jewishness. Another correspondent
to this net said "Jesus didn't sanction conversion by force." Fine,
nolo contendere. We're not talking about Jesus when we talk about
Jesus; we're really talking about a figure who was created by his
followers to somewhat justify their own desires and actions. The
mythic Jesus of Christianity has been the excuse for a history of
anti-Jewishness, anti-Semitism, and wholesale slaughter. Jesus
may not have sanctioned forced conversions; but (one example)
Fernando of Spain had no problems with the concept or the practice.
The "Jesus" you are talking about is the creation and outgrowth of a
Christian faith that has had an unfortunate history of talking about
Jews as their "brethren" while burning our synagogues, raping our
wives, and impaling our babies, all in the name of an historical
tormented Jew who may have died on a cross. As the historian Will
Durant once put it, "For that one death on the cross, how many
crucifixions!"
--
Ken Wolman
Bell Communications Research @ Livingston
lcuxc!kenw
(201) 740-4565
("My doctorate's in Literature, but that feels like a
pretty good pulse to me. . . .")jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (01/15/85)
Jews for Jesus are Jews from a religious point of view as hypothetical Christians against Jesus or Christians for Satan are Christians. If the "Jews for Jesus" accept the above "Christians" as Christians then Jews for Jesus could be considered as Jews. -- Yosi Hoshen, Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, (312)-979-7321, Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (01/15/85)
Mr. Frank Silbermann, in regard to your reply to Julie Harazduk on the subject of Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply (as opposed to others.) Based on Frank's reply, I draw the following conclusion about Jewish belief: God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. (Which is it?) Questions: What is current Jewish thought as to the nature of their Messiah? Does this thought vary across various lines of Judaism? When will He come? If the idea of God sweeping down to Earth, impregnating a virgin who gives birth to a divine child, smacks of Roman mythology, I am curious as to Jewish thought on the creation story in the "Book of Beginnings" (and other stories in the early part of the Torah) which have counterparts in Egyptian and Babylonian literature. No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a Jewish perspective. Ken Swanson 4F-617 AT&T Bell Labs Holmdel, NJ 07733 ... ihnp4!vax135!gks
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (01/15/85)
Very long quote at end. I have long wondered about the Jews for Jesus, and this article cleared many things up for me. I wondered why Jews believed in Jesus and how far this belief went. Do they think he was the messiah and that's it meaning they still observe all the mitzvot ( according to whomever you choose ) or do they go further and adopt christian beliefs? If the former is true then I have one thing to say: If we now are living in the times of the messiah then why do we not have the Temple? The Messiah is supposed to lead us out of our exile ( which we are still in, even if we control Israel ), and set up the monarchy of King David, along with the rebuilding of the Temple. Why has this not occurred? Why are Jews still being killed and persecuted for being Jews. Why ha G-D's kingdom not been recognized across the land? If you'll tell me that the messiah came and left because the world was messed up, well, all I can say is why didn't he fix the world? ( Which is a question I have in general of christianity, why did Jesus have to die to atone for our sins? If he was god why not correct the problems. Also why did he let himself get killed? Why not destroy those who wanted to kill him? ) Back to our discussion. Why do you say that there will be a second coming, something we were never told about. We were promised a redeemer, who will come, and it seems he will need come only once. It's just as easy to say the messiah hasn't come yet as it is to say he came, left, and will return. I fear though that Jews who assume that Jesus is more than just another Jew are taking a little more than just the fact that he was the messiah from christianity. You write of the father and the spirit, clearly christian ideas. In Judaism there is no father and there is no son. The Messiah is no more G-Dly than I am. Jesus was a Jew and I am too. In fact when people tell me he was a son of G-D, I say I am too, and I'm Jewish to boot, does that mean that I should be worshipped? The spirit of G-D is prophesy, something we haven't had since the beginning of the second Temple era, and Jesus came towards the end. So the Jews for Jesus aren't just accepting Jesus as the Jewish messiah. Rather they are accepting christian ideas and ideals. This is the problem with this group. They cloak missionising for christianity in Jewish terms. And they say that they are practicing Jews. This is truly the worst enemy of the Jews. Those who parade as Jews and would have us believe this while their intentions ( whether they realize this or not ) are otherwise. You might not believe that there is anything unjewish in Jews for Jesus but there are subtleties in their literature which you might not realize. Read their material carefully ( I can't bring examples off hand since I don't have my material here ). I have run out of time so I'll wait for the flames to toast me before my next article on the matter. Flame away, I'm prepared this time. Eliyahu Teitz. > >>Karen asks: > >> "Why the fear of such an organization?" > > > Ken Wolman answers: > > > > First of all, Jesus is generally regarded by believing Christians > > as the fulfillment of the Davidic prophecies supposedly peppered > > throughout the Tanach, especially in Isaiah. He is believed to be > > the messiah. No Jew accepts this. NO Jew: and I include here not > > only the Orthodox voices that are the majority on this net, but > > also Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist-identifying Jews. > > Wrong. What about Jews for Jesus. Are they not Jews. Or are they not > because you and other Jews on the net (now the ultimate authority, huh?:-) > decide they're not? Who's the judge anyway? Is not G-d the Judge of > His own people? It is probably your responsibility to inform and/or warn > fellow Jews of their misunderstanding (in YOUR opinion) just as it is > ours to warn you (of OUR opinion). I know...I've been warned and > have warned and I realize the validity of this action from both sides. > > > At some point in the so-called Middle Ages, probably around the > > fifth or sixth centuries CE (I rely on historians for corrections > > here), the Jews attained pariah status in Western civilization. No > > need to recount the restrictive laws passed in the Teutonic states, > > in France, in England, in the Byzantine empire. No need to give > > ghastly details of the persecutions, murders, "trials of the > > Talmud," and expulsions from country to country. Jews were an on- > > going source of horror to believing Christians because their in- > > sistence on holding to their faith and ways undercut the essential > > Christian belief that the life of "Jesus Christ" ended the "old > > law" and obviated the need for the Jews to remain Jews. Here was > > a nation of men and women who said "No. It wasn't him." > > Jesus never "ended the old law." As has been discussed in net.religion. > christian, Jesus not only came to fullfill the law (every letter), He > came to reveal G-d, the Father, to both Jews and Gentiles. He never > said that Jews should not obey the law. This is something that is left > for the Jews to decide. However, it was revealed through the Spirit to > Paul that the Gentiles did not have to become Jews first before accepting > the teachings of Jesus. Paul states that if a Jew chooses to observe > the law (as to G-d and not men, i.e. for the purpose of enhancing his > relationship with G-d) we should not stumble him in any way but respect > this and observe also in his presence. > > > So why our fear of Jew for Jesus? Why our disgust? Why do you > > have to ask? Do you believe that there are Christian sects that > > have given up on us, officially or unofficially? > > You haven't truly answered these first two questions. Why the "fear"? > Are Jews afraid of being persecuted by Jews? Is it the teachings of > Jesus that necessitate the persecution of Jews? Or do you think maybe > it's more the nature of the people involved. Not all persecution has > been Christian to Jew and, for that matter, not all persecution has been > religious in nature. Disgust of persecution is understandable; but for > the teachings of a man who was an observant Jew and may very well have > fullfilled the prophesies of the "awaited messiah" is not understandable. > If you have deemed Him not the messiah for some reason, then it is more > understandable indeed. > > Christians are just responsible for telling people the good news > as given to them by Jesus (a Jewish Prophet) and His apostles (given > authority by Jesus). They will not stop doing that, I guarantee. > Christ is preached for every conceivable reason and not all of them > (the reasons) are upright or sincere. It is from this insincerity > (probably jealousy, envy or some other foolish emotion) that such > persecutions as you have mentioned arise. And this insincerity is > the anti-thesis of Jesus' teaching (just read Proverbs and then > the accounts of the gospel). > > >Do you believe that > > the supposed "friends" of the Jews such as Revs. Falwell and > > Robertson support the state of Israel from altruistic motives, or > > because they believe that the restoration of the Jews to their > > land is the first step toward the CONVERSION of those same Jews to > > acceptance of "Jesus Christ" as the messiah? > > As stated above, there are many motives involved in preaching Christ, > not all of them are upright and in line with His teachings. I am not > here to judge the Falwells et al. but rather, I judge my own relation- > ship with G-d and ask Him to show Mercy on me as King David did. > > >Do you believe that > > if they fail--as they will--their wrath at the Jews' "stubborness" > > will be any less palpable than that of a Medieval Bishop or > > Cardinal in Mainz, Paris, or Cologne? Finally, do you believe that > > today's Jews--observant or not--can tolerate a group whose motives > > are at best suspect, and at worst directed toward our extinction? > > It is questionable to say that the Jews will never accept Jesus as > their messiah. He says they will. I do not dispute that. But I > know it may not (necessarily) be because of Christian evangelism, > for most it will be when He comes in all His glory. There will be > no questions then. > > Julie Harazduk > philabs!jah > > "I didn't start it...I just saw it here and couldn't resist the > opportunity to discuss my faith." - A Jew who knows Jesus. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (01/16/85)
From Frank Silbermann: > >Do you, Julie Harazduk, accept the doctrine of the trinity of God? >If so, you are not a "Jew for Jesus", but a Christian. > I don't think the doctrine of the trinity is essential to being Christian; this idea was largely an elaboration on vague notions in the New Testament by early Christian philosphers with a bent for Greek philosophy. To the best of my knowledge, the primary belief that separates Christian from Jewish theology is the Resurrection -- metaphysically, Easter is a far more significant date than Christmas. -michael ellis
sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (01/16/85)
To paraphrase from the article I am replying to: "Jewish thought is that God is too aloof or holy to dwell among men." (Sorry my latest news program neglected to include the article in my news buffer). To my thought this statement is similar to: The number 2 is too aloof, mysterious or holy to dwell among men. In other words, I believe that your statement involves an implicit anthropomorphism. I believe that according to the Jewish sages such as Maimonides the concept of time itself does not apply to God. This would render his dwelling among men somewhat problematical. As far as God causing a son to come to be, are we not all children of God? As far as comparing christianity to pagan religions that was probably unfair. But you were asking for it when you chose to prosletyze on net.religion.jewish . Anyway from the accepted Jewish definitions christianity is (more or less) idol worship. Is there a difference between a cross and a depiction of Zeus (aside from the fact that they are symbols of different religions)? If so what is the difference? -David Sher
gek@ihu1j.UUCP (glenn kapetansky) (01/17/85)
>No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a >Jewish perspective. Because Ken Swanson appended this, I will enter the fray. >I draw the following conclusion about Jewish belief: > God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would > venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. What does it mean "to dwell among us"? God is everywhere, so He always dwells in me and around me here on Earth. "In person" -- what does that mean? God is not a person at all. Please make an effort not to interpret Judaism using Christian concepts (I remember being asked by a dear young lady, "I understand Jews don't believe in Jesus; but if that's so, how do you celebrate Christmas?"). God doesn't seem any more aloof or mysterious to me than my parents were to me as a 3-year-old...yet my parents were never remote, I KNEW they loved me and looked out after me (that's only an example; don't tell me "see! and your parents seem incomprehensible but they are people, just as Jesus.." uh uh. Rather, see that if my parents seemed incomprehensibly superior and mysterious, how much MORE mysterious must God seem, who is decidedly NOT a person. And if I know the measure of my parents care, how much more must be God's?). Ken, I'm just trying to point out that the "Jesus was God come to live among us" bit is a meaningless sound to Jews; it just doesn't mean anything. I tell you what. When the messiah comes, we'll both ask him whether this is the first or second time he's come around. I'll buy you a beer if you're right. Of course, since we're both eager to see who wins, let's both live our lives as best we may, to hasten his arrival. You be the best Christian you can, and I'll be the best Jew. I'll even make a side bet that if we're both living according to the rules of our respective religions, outsiders will think both of us are doing a great job of making the world a better and holier place. What more can you ask? -- glenn kapetansky "Think of it as evolution in action" ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (01/17/85)
In article <vax135.932> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes: >Mr. Frank Silbermann, in regard to your reply to Julie Harazduk on >the subject of Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, thank you >for your thoughtful and informative reply (as opposed to others.) You're very welcome. >Based on Frank's reply, I draw the following conclusion about Jewish >belief: > God is too aloof, remote, mysterious or holy that He would > venture to dwell amongst us, in person, here on Earth. > (Which is it?) All of the above. The traditional Jewish approach is that God is to great for any of us to REALLY comprehend. We can, however, gain a few morsals of enlightenment through the study and practice of His law (the five books of Moses, interpreted and explained in the Talmud, etc.). >Questions: > What is current Jewish thought as to the nature of their > Messiah? Does this thought vary across various lines of > Judaism? When will He come? > Yes, these ideas vary widely amoung different Jewish denominations. I do not consider myself knowledgeable enough to speak for any of them. > If the idea of God sweeping down to Earth, impregnating a > virgin who gives birth to a divine child, smacks of Roman > mythology, I am curious as to Jewish thought on the creation > story in the "Book of Beginnings" (and other stories in > the early part of the Torah) which have counterparts in > Egyptian and Babylonian literature. > Perhaps this merely demonstrates that all faiths contain some truth. I have no problem with the similarity in creation stories, because I am not a "Bible fundamentalist", thought many Jews are, especially amoung the Orthodox. Actually, I personally am skeptical of the details of all of these stories. Though Judaeism teaches these stories to be true, I don't think Jews are not required to believe them. Actually, I'm not sure that Jews are "required" to believe anything. The only real requirement is obedience to the laws. Of course, if a Jew doesn't believe in God, then to whom would he atone (seek forgiveness) when he slips up? >No prosletyzing intended - I'm just interested in some answers from a >Jewish perspective. > I hope that other more knowledgeable readers can help you out further. Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina LORD, PLEASE BRING ME INTO THE COMPANY OF THOSE WHO SEEK THE TRUTH, AND DELIVER ME FROM THOSE WHO HAVE FOUND IT.
mickey@cca.UUCP (Mickey Levine) (01/17/85)
I know, enough is enough, but....
Bravo, Stuart. I too was offended by Julies article. Let me make myself
clear. What seperates Judiasm from Christianity is the belief of Jesus
as a messiah. To believe in him is Christian, to not believe is not. There-
fore, Jews for Jesus are not Jews, for they are following in the path of
Christianity no matter what name they want to call it up front. The existance
of this group is offending to Judiasm. Let's hope they will see that they
are noothing but an evangelical group trying to get converts to Christianity.
But haven't we been through this for the last ~2000 years?
Mickey Levine ('Meechial')
decvax!cca!mickeyericksen@unmvax.UUCP (01/18/85)
> To paraphrase from the article I am replying to: > "Jewish thought is that God is too aloof or holy to dwell among men." > > (Sorry my latest news program neglected to include the article in my news > buffer). To my thought this statement is similar to: > > The number 2 is too aloof, mysterious or holy to dwell among men. > > In other words, I believe that your statement involves an implicit > anthropomorphism. I believe that according to the Jewish sages such > as Maimonides the concept of time itself does not apply to God. This > would render his dwelling among men somewhat problematical. As far as > God causing a son to come to be, are we not all children of God? > > As far as comparing christianity to pagan religions that was probably > unfair. But you were asking for it when you chose to prosletyze on > net.religion.jewish . Anyway from the accepted Jewish definitions > christianity is (more or less) idol worship. Is there a difference > between a cross and a depiction of Zeus (aside from the fact that they > are symbols of different religions)? If so what is the difference? > > -David Sher *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
wayne@cylixd.UUCP (Wayne Steinmetz) (01/18/85)
>...... Of course, since we're both eager to see who wins, let's both >live our lives as best we may, to hasten his arrival. You be the best >Christian you can, and I'll be the best Jew. I'll even make a side >bet that if we're both living according to the rules of our respective >religions, outsiders will think both of us are doing a great job of >making the world a better and holier place. What more can you ask? AMEN!!!! Now if the rest of the Jewish and Christian community could get ahold of that concept, we'd be able to wrap this thing up and go on home! Psalm 19:14 > to name just 2 Psalm 22:27 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Steinmetz ...!ihnp4!{akgua, akgub}!cylixd!wayne It's a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord ...